The current Concrete5 situation is messy at best
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I have used Concrete5 for a few years and it does not take long to master how to build great themes that work extremely well for brochure websites. Great plugins allow for even further expansion of your website if needs be. Write a simple document for a client on how to edit their website and they find it very easy to maintain.
The massive concern I have is that the developers are forcing version 5.7 down everyone's throat when the product is still not finished. The documentation for 5.7 is still not even done. There are also an insanely small amount of plugins available for 5.7. Forcing some developers, like me to still use 5.6.3.1. Concrete5 then released 5.6.3.2 after releasing multiple updates for 5.7. So it looks like they are working on both products which slows down the process of moving forward. Be aware that there is no script available to upgrade from 5.6.3.2 to 5.7, but they are promising one will be available in the future.
The change is massive for developers and site editors. Although the cosmetic features are brilliant and a few minor changes bring massive improvements for site editors and permission settings, 5.7 is still something you should avoid for at least another year in my opinion. v5.6.3.2 is the best version of the product.
I prefer to use Concrete5 over Wordpress. But having two versions out that are so different has really made me doubt what was such a brilliant product for my requirements. Once 5.7 is fully operationally and all bugs cleared with a strong market place, I will be using it. For now I am stuck with 5.6.3.2.
Are you guys going to keep back porting changes until you have a script for upgrade available. What does that mean for my existing theme? Will I have to recode it when I upgrade? Am I stupid to keep developing in 5.6.3.2 with no upgrade script? What happens when 5.7 takes over and my client's 5.6.3.2 website get's hacked. I am not going to be recoding themes. So much extra work could suddenly appear and consume me. I am worried that this great system is just going to fall apart??
The massive concern I have is that the developers are forcing version 5.7 down everyone's throat when the product is still not finished. The documentation for 5.7 is still not even done. There are also an insanely small amount of plugins available for 5.7. Forcing some developers, like me to still use 5.6.3.1. Concrete5 then released 5.6.3.2 after releasing multiple updates for 5.7. So it looks like they are working on both products which slows down the process of moving forward. Be aware that there is no script available to upgrade from 5.6.3.2 to 5.7, but they are promising one will be available in the future.
The change is massive for developers and site editors. Although the cosmetic features are brilliant and a few minor changes bring massive improvements for site editors and permission settings, 5.7 is still something you should avoid for at least another year in my opinion. v5.6.3.2 is the best version of the product.
I prefer to use Concrete5 over Wordpress. But having two versions out that are so different has really made me doubt what was such a brilliant product for my requirements. Once 5.7 is fully operationally and all bugs cleared with a strong market place, I will be using it. For now I am stuck with 5.6.3.2.
Are you guys going to keep back porting changes until you have a script for upgrade available. What does that mean for my existing theme? Will I have to recode it when I upgrade? Am I stupid to keep developing in 5.6.3.2 with no upgrade script? What happens when 5.7 takes over and my client's 5.6.3.2 website get's hacked. I am not going to be recoding themes. So much extra work could suddenly appear and consume me. I am worried that this great system is just going to fall apart??
Anyone have any thoughts?
There number of addons for 5.7 is growing, but very few of the more complex addons and serious applications are being ported from 5.6.
You have already identified many of the reasons.
Such addons are costly to develop and costly to port to 5.7, especially when much of the how-to-do-it must be learned by archaeology rather than from documentation. These addons are rarely developed purely for the marketplace. They tend to be developed because a developer has a specific customer requirement, then spun off from that and turned into a marketplace addon. So much of the development cost is borne by the customer project and the marketplace sees an addon at considerably less than what its real cost would be.
If a new customer approaches a developer for the application the addon serves. they have a choice of 5.6 with little development cost, or 5.7 with all the porting cost. Customers naturally choose the cheaper and faster 5.6 route and the addon does not get ported to 5.7.
A developer could release for 5.7 at a price that would at some point recover the actual cost, but marketplace customers would not stand for paying 10x as much as they currently do for a 5.7 version of the addon. Even if they did, the time to recover that developer's investment would be measured in years.
Despite such economics working against 5.7, many of us developers do have intentions to port addons to 5.7. We are just waiting for the situation to improve to the point where it is not quite so unfavourable.
You have already identified many of the reasons.
Such addons are costly to develop and costly to port to 5.7, especially when much of the how-to-do-it must be learned by archaeology rather than from documentation. These addons are rarely developed purely for the marketplace. They tend to be developed because a developer has a specific customer requirement, then spun off from that and turned into a marketplace addon. So much of the development cost is borne by the customer project and the marketplace sees an addon at considerably less than what its real cost would be.
If a new customer approaches a developer for the application the addon serves. they have a choice of 5.6 with little development cost, or 5.7 with all the porting cost. Customers naturally choose the cheaper and faster 5.6 route and the addon does not get ported to 5.7.
A developer could release for 5.7 at a price that would at some point recover the actual cost, but marketplace customers would not stand for paying 10x as much as they currently do for a 5.7 version of the addon. Even if they did, the time to recover that developer's investment would be measured in years.
Despite such economics working against 5.7, many of us developers do have intentions to port addons to 5.7. We are just waiting for the situation to improve to the point where it is not quite so unfavourable.
I think I appreciate where you're coming from on this but it's no different really to what the likes of Apple, for example, do with iOS - release a version of the operating system and then deal with any of the issues after it's out there. We've effectively become their beta testers.
As for C5.7, I think the guys are probably working flat out to make the release as stable and feature rich as possible. I don't agree with the loaded gun approach forcing you into 5.7. I pretty much did my homework, installed 5.7 and had a good look around first before deciding I wouldn't update any of my existing sites, for now, and like you I'll probably wait until it's a lot more rounded a release before I do so. When there's basic blocks I use in 5.6 that aren't available in 5.7 then that pretty much rules out 5.7 for me.
Still, having said all that, when you see all the good stuff in 5.7 it's like Santa leaving open presents for all to see and not being able to play with them.
As for C5.7, I think the guys are probably working flat out to make the release as stable and feature rich as possible. I don't agree with the loaded gun approach forcing you into 5.7. I pretty much did my homework, installed 5.7 and had a good look around first before deciding I wouldn't update any of my existing sites, for now, and like you I'll probably wait until it's a lot more rounded a release before I do so. When there's basic blocks I use in 5.6 that aren't available in 5.7 then that pretty much rules out 5.7 for me.
Still, having said all that, when you see all the good stuff in 5.7 it's like Santa leaving open presents for all to see and not being able to play with them.
Thanks for the response guys. Much appreciated.
- My Major Worry
We have many client websites that have been built in 5.6.3.1. If one of them get's hacked due to a security exploit in the CMS or has a bug that has been fixed in 5.7 I won't be able to upgrade due to lack of script or lack of support by the plugins used on the existing website. So I will have to redo the entire website because I won't be able to apply any patches. That is a massive hit to mirco agency like mine. Since every sensible agency like mine using Concrete5, will be staying with 5.6.x for a long time, we will have to keep praying updates to it do not stop. They have shown willingness to update 5.6, but it is not the best time to be an agency relying on a CMS that is changing so drastically. My problem with the developers here is that a CMS like Wordpress does not do this to it's community when a new version comes out and divides the community in two.
- Shoving 5.7 down our throats
Like you said. It really still is in beta. You can use it, but not effectively. Yet, after the update to the main website, everything has changed to reflect that 5.7 is the new way forward as if it's ready. Promo videos on their YouTube channel tell us to use it too. My problem is, it should have been released clearly as Beta and still have the main focus on 5.6.x.
- Like Santa brought the gifts early
It's more like Santa took the gifts halfway off the production line, didn't wrap them and threw it us and said "Play with it". That it BETA testing, not a full product lol.
- What should have happened
All developers should have been alerted that 5.7 is coming. Documentation should have been completed to the maximum. Then allowed developers to download a BETA version to upgrade their blocks that they are making a constant profit on. Eg: Radient Web's blocks. Then a year later do the refresh of the site and introduce a fully functional product.
- My micro agency
Stuffed until Concrete5 let developers know the direction they are going in. Once 5.7 is ready and the market place has filled. We are stuck in Limbo. If no news comes quick we will have to move on to another CMS like WordPress that won't leave my developers hanging when a new version comes out.
- Concrete5
I love Concrete5 and I think 5.7 is going to be great. I so badly want to use it. I just want to feel a sense of security while I am still stuck using 5.6.3.2. At the moment, with the community divided, it does not bode well.
- My Major Worry
We have many client websites that have been built in 5.6.3.1. If one of them get's hacked due to a security exploit in the CMS or has a bug that has been fixed in 5.7 I won't be able to upgrade due to lack of script or lack of support by the plugins used on the existing website. So I will have to redo the entire website because I won't be able to apply any patches. That is a massive hit to mirco agency like mine. Since every sensible agency like mine using Concrete5, will be staying with 5.6.x for a long time, we will have to keep praying updates to it do not stop. They have shown willingness to update 5.6, but it is not the best time to be an agency relying on a CMS that is changing so drastically. My problem with the developers here is that a CMS like Wordpress does not do this to it's community when a new version comes out and divides the community in two.
- Shoving 5.7 down our throats
Like you said. It really still is in beta. You can use it, but not effectively. Yet, after the update to the main website, everything has changed to reflect that 5.7 is the new way forward as if it's ready. Promo videos on their YouTube channel tell us to use it too. My problem is, it should have been released clearly as Beta and still have the main focus on 5.6.x.
- Like Santa brought the gifts early
It's more like Santa took the gifts halfway off the production line, didn't wrap them and threw it us and said "Play with it". That it BETA testing, not a full product lol.
- What should have happened
All developers should have been alerted that 5.7 is coming. Documentation should have been completed to the maximum. Then allowed developers to download a BETA version to upgrade their blocks that they are making a constant profit on. Eg: Radient Web's blocks. Then a year later do the refresh of the site and introduce a fully functional product.
- My micro agency
Stuffed until Concrete5 let developers know the direction they are going in. Once 5.7 is ready and the market place has filled. We are stuck in Limbo. If no news comes quick we will have to move on to another CMS like WordPress that won't leave my developers hanging when a new version comes out.
- Concrete5
I love Concrete5 and I think 5.7 is going to be great. I so badly want to use it. I just want to feel a sense of security while I am still stuck using 5.6.3.2. At the moment, with the community divided, it does not bode well.
Security, maybe!
But 'concrete5.org' is still using version '5.5.2.2a1' (view source).
But 'concrete5.org' is still using version '5.5.2.2a1' (view source).
Cant view the source. Am on mobile atm. That is crazy? Why isnt it 5.7???
I hear what y'all are saying, but would add that I am finishing up my second production "brochureware" site on 5.7, and fixing to launch into a more complex real estate listing site. I am not 100% settled in my mind that I'm going with 5.7 on that one, but I probably am, I'm going to start grayboxing and proving methods in it anyway, if I hit a wall, will have to fall back to 5.6. I believe it will fly, it just takes some creative solutions. 5.7 has a lot going for it, and a lot of issues.
I'll add here also that one of the single biggest editing issues I see is this business of dragging blocks into areas. It is cool, and works well, but I wish it was an alternative to still being able to click an area's tab and choose "Add block" like in 5.6. I think the new Composer integration in 5.7 though is going to be awesome, in as far as being able to build form-based content creation for page setup. Expecting a client to build pages block-by-block is fraught with troubles, it's too much for my clients to learn and remember, but toss them a form to fill in and the page builds itself, that rocks, IMO.
Like the OP, I worry about building on feature-rich and documented 5.6 and then being stuck for security upgrades in a year or two.
To another point, "Wordpress doesn't do this to their users".... maybe not WP, but Andrew has made the point in other threads that CMSs like Drupal, do. (But I wouldn't know about Drupal, I tried it once, then deleted it and went with C5 ; )
C5 is in an awkward spot right now, but I'm not giving up on it by any means. Adapt and overcome is my thinking. There's always another solution.
All just my humble opinion... : )
I'll add here also that one of the single biggest editing issues I see is this business of dragging blocks into areas. It is cool, and works well, but I wish it was an alternative to still being able to click an area's tab and choose "Add block" like in 5.6. I think the new Composer integration in 5.7 though is going to be awesome, in as far as being able to build form-based content creation for page setup. Expecting a client to build pages block-by-block is fraught with troubles, it's too much for my clients to learn and remember, but toss them a form to fill in and the page builds itself, that rocks, IMO.
Like the OP, I worry about building on feature-rich and documented 5.6 and then being stuck for security upgrades in a year or two.
To another point, "Wordpress doesn't do this to their users".... maybe not WP, but Andrew has made the point in other threads that CMSs like Drupal, do. (But I wouldn't know about Drupal, I tried it once, then deleted it and went with C5 ; )
C5 is in an awkward spot right now, but I'm not giving up on it by any means. Adapt and overcome is my thinking. There's always another solution.
All just my humble opinion... : )
@tduncandesign
Adding blocks from the area tabs is coming back in the 5.7.4 release.
"Bring back "Add Block" to Area Menu
Clicking this should open the add block panel. Clicking a block, a scrapbook or a stack from within this panel should start the add operation to the area, just like in 5.6 and earlier."
https://github.com/concrete5/concrete5-5.7.0/issues/1915...
5.7.4 is going to be an important release with a lot of improvements (Redactor especially).
Lack of documentation is a legitimate issue.
Adding blocks from the area tabs is coming back in the 5.7.4 release.
"Bring back "Add Block" to Area Menu
Clicking this should open the add block panel. Clicking a block, a scrapbook or a stack from within this panel should start the add operation to the area, just like in 5.6 and earlier."
https://github.com/concrete5/concrete5-5.7.0/issues/1915...
5.7.4 is going to be an important release with a lot of improvements (Redactor especially).
Lack of documentation is a legitimate issue.
Hey guys. You might want to check this thread out. A developer replied there....
http://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/2w6fld/have_you_used_concrete5...
http://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/2w6fld/have_you_used_concrete5...
That is awesome news MrK. I'm really kind of digging 5.7 in many ways. It feels weird now when I go back to a 5.6 site.
Redactor... I wish we could get an easy way to manage it's config and plugins.
I ran into a weird issue with Redactor, just thought I'd document this here:
I loaded Google fonts off their link, and in Chrome (not FF, Safari), whenever I'd press spacebar whilst entering text, the spacebar would not advance visually in the editor, but if I typed the next letter, the space would appear. This was leading to inadvertent typing of double spaces, because if I double spaced, a single space would appear visually. However, this was inserting a lot of entities in the HTML. Yet, those would not render in Chrome! It turned out to be something with the Google-served webfont. I downloaded the font, and processed into a typekit at FontSquirrel, then loaded it via @font-face, and it all works normally now.
Redactor... I wish we could get an easy way to manage it's config and plugins.
I ran into a weird issue with Redactor, just thought I'd document this here:
I loaded Google fonts off their link, and in Chrome (not FF, Safari), whenever I'd press spacebar whilst entering text, the spacebar would not advance visually in the editor, but if I typed the next letter, the space would appear. This was leading to inadvertent typing of double spaces, because if I double spaced, a single space would appear visually. However, this was inserting a lot of entities in the HTML. Yet, those would not render in Chrome! It turned out to be something with the Google-served webfont. I downloaded the font, and processed into a typekit at FontSquirrel, then loaded it via @font-face, and it all works normally now.
Since you mention that it only happened in Chrome, I wonder if it was woff2 related.
You should try enabling woff2 in Firefox to see if has the same problem.
Instructions for enabling woff2 at the bottom of this page:
http://demosthenes.info/blog/976/Serving-Up-WOFF2-Fonts-For-Faster-...
You should try enabling woff2 in Firefox to see if has the same problem.
Instructions for enabling woff2 at the bottom of this page:
http://demosthenes.info/blog/976/Serving-Up-WOFF2-Fonts-For-Faster-...
