so kind of like a mini developer license?

interesting idea, i think atleast 5 for the price of 4 is a better idea,

15+15+15=45 and 30 lost
or
15+15+15+15=60 and 15 lost

i think that its more fair to developers if its 5 for 4 at a minimum,

If you're going to implement the logic, why not allow the developer to specify the discount scheme - i.e. "x" for the price of "y".

If they want to do a "buy one, get one free" promotion, they could specify 2 for the price of 1. Or maybe they want to offer a "buy 10, get 2 free" (12 for the price of 10), or whatever. Why not put the control into the hands of those doing the work and creating the value.

Just my $0.02...

-Steve

I actually agree with steve

I agree with Steve as well.

::like::

C

mostly cause i want it to be universal and simple for an end customer to understand.

same reason why we've steered developers all towards sharing the same licenses.

You can always grant a free license to someone, so if you want to "setup your own deal" you can do that today.

> mostly cause i want it to be universal and simple for an end
> customer to understand.

Believe me, I'm all in favor of keeping things simple - especially for end users; but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that what I suggested complicates things for the end user. I mean, c'mon. Deciding on the best value at the supermarket is more brain strain.

> same reason why we've steered developers all towards sharing
> the same licenses.

That's a very different ball game. EULA's are notoriously complicated and ridiculously verbose with often times arcane and confusing terminology; and most people don't read them anyway. I _do_ see value in having consistent licensing for all marketplace items. But that's quite different from a user deciding whether to buy 1 for $30 or 3 for $75.

> You can always grant a free license to someone, so if you
> want to "setup your own deal" you can do that today.

I will admit that I don't currently have anything in the marketplace, so I don't know how the "setup your own deal" works, but it sounds like a round-about back-door kind of thing which the marketplace does not facilitate - unless you're saying that the marketplace allows developers to prominently display on the product details page a link stating "contact me directly for quantity pricing," but I suspect that's not the case.

Also, it's not clear to me if what you're proposing would even allow developers to decide WHETHER the bulk purchase option applies to their products. If you're saying it would apply across the board to all marketplace items and the developer would have no say in it, then it certainly wouldn't appeal to me. If it's a choice between that and the current single fixed-price system, I'd stick with the latter, as it's at least more predictable and easier to set pricing. The "one size fits all" discount approach just doesn't sit well with me personally, as it's akin to allowing you to determine (at least to a degree) the value of my time and the fruits of my labor.

-Steve

I like the idea. Maybe if there were pre-packaged packages, like "Social Tools" and it came with everything you need for a social network, or "Ecommerce Tools", etc. The reason for this I think is that many site owners coming to browse the marketplace don't really know what to look for, but they do know what they want their site to do/be.

Since I don't have any addons in the marketplace myself my position may seem a bit biased but to be honest it would be exactly the same even if I had 100. If the revenue from the package was distrusted evenly based on the Retail value to Package value ratio, then it would be great. As a developer I would rather be able to see 10 of my addons sold for a fraction of the price than to see only 1 or 2 sold at full price. Especially if packages got more site advertising.

The only foreseeable problem I can tell arising from this is the increase in support vs the revenue generated. (more addons sold but less money made). But then if a developer is creating good stuff there should be less need for support.

Maybe if you allowed developers to opt-in their Addons to be included in packages.

> Maybe if you allowed developers to opt-in
> their Addons to be included in packages.

It would not be ideal, but I could live with being able to opt in and opt out AT WILL (preferably on a per-product basis) if a rigid "one size fits all" package discount scheme were to be implemented.

-Steve

Shotster: I just think it's a lot easier to be able to give clear answers to folk with fewer words. I get a lot of small agencies asking about reuse of licenses, so to be able to say "Sure, you can get 5 for the price of 3" - or frankly any universal deal, is a lot easier than saying "Each and every add-on developer makes up their own specials every day! Isn't that exciting?!?"

I dunno, doesn't have to be 5 for the price of 3... Perhaps its up to the developer to price their 5 pack license? Perhaps its optional as well? There just has to be a one sentence explanation that is easily communicated to someone who is new to concrete5 and asking.

Ideasponge:
Re: quantity vs cost - you're forgetting support. While yes very often someone buys something like the superfish add-on and the most we ever hear from them is a positive review, there's also any number of people who have questions on how to style it, etc. Whatever the ratio is, there's always time spent helping customers, at least in this business. The only value in selling quantity is security - lose one customer and you haven't lost your bank. More customers always equals more pain, no offense. ;)

The grouping idea makes a lot of sense to me in the abstract - but I'm not sure I see an easy path to make it happen right away. I can imagine grouping up a few things from the same developer so the percentage issue doesn't get confusing, but then I can also see the marketplace getting really confusing if we don't watch the architecture of that and it happens a lot. Same reason I want a simple bulk discount model developers can choose to use or not - our biggest challenge is to keep things simple at a glance.

Anyrate, interesting thoughts all.
thx

Yeah the more I think about it the more I just see "Buy 5-Pack" as another blue button under "Add to Cart".. The developer can choose what to price that at, even just leaving it at 5 * regular.

now we've got a gentle reminder that you are in fact buying a license per site on every page, and the timeless "is there a developer license?" question answers itself.

...unless someone sees something i'm missing....?

my thoughts:

Ultimately, how we price though Franz, is money in or out of YOUR pocket. Having said that, I wouldn't mind if you add a flat percentage based on QTY. It's easy, It's understandable, and opens the door to add additional packaging options down the road.

5 pack - %80
10 pack - %65
20 pack - %50

If you base it on %, there is then no set up required by dev's, there is no buy one get on or two or three...it's just a "known"

I also DO in fact like the idea of someone buying 10 and 20 packs as well.

Perhaps that's just me.

Chad

Who's actually buying Add Ons, end users or developers? I usually have my client buy the Add On and send it to me to install. I don't see end users buying 5 packs and personally, I never know that far in advance what modules I will be using on upcoming projects to need to have them on the shelf.

A price scale based on my buying history would change the way I purchase Add Ons.

Someone offering a commission on my purchases or referrals would be interesting too. If I bought or through referral x copies of an add where purchased, give me a free copy.

Same goes for hosting, I've referred clients there too and no one knows, some incentive there could make for more referrals.

Peter

I like this idea too. I understand why other approaches are being advocated for, but I'm always a fan of something that we can do with a minimal amount of interface, both for explaining the deals and the setup of the deals.

> Yeah the more I think about it the more I just see
> "Buy 5-Pack" as another blue button under "Add to Cart".

Or the big blue button could simply say "Buy x for $y" where "x" and "y" are developer-determined - i.e. no special interface requirements for package pricing. (Of course, you'd have the change the button from being a graphic to being actual text with a blue background, but that's trivial.)

-Steve

> I just think it's a lot easier to be able to give clear
> answers to folk with fewer words.

I just don't see, "Quantity discounts are clearly indicated on the product page" as being unclear.

> I get a lot of small agencies asking about reuse of licenses

If the quantity pricing were indicated on the product page, you'd likely get far fewer inquiries.

> I dunno, doesn't have to be 5 for the price of 3... Perhaps
> its up to the developer to price their 5 pack license?

Now you're talkin'. So it seems you're willing to consider a "5 for $y" scheme where the developer determines "y". And if you're willing to consider that, why not allow the developer to set both numeric quantities (x for $y)? That would be even better than my original "5 for the price of y" proposal. Just allow the developer to set both the package size (quantity) and the package price directly. I guess I just don't see what's magical about the number 5. Developers aren't going to short-change themselves, and you stand to gain from it.

> Perhaps its optional as well?

If the developer was in control of both values, I doubt many would opt out. They could conceivably make the quantity rate exactly the same as the single unit price, although I suspect most would provide some discount, even if it's relatively small. I could even live with package discounts being on a per-developer basis instead of per-product, with the package discount being expressed as a percentage.

> There just has to be a one sentence explanation that is
> easily communicated to someone who is new to concrete5 and
> asking.

Again, here's your sentence... "Quantity discounts are clearly indicated on the product page." I mean, don't they have to go through the marketplace to purchase the licenses anyway?

-Steve

Will this include themes as well? The only people who have contacted me about multiple purchases want to resell which I do not want. I am assuming our license does not allow them to resell them as templates so a developer's license would not as well.

Someone asked earlier and for me personally I have the user buy the add on unless they are extremely non technical and can't handle the check out process (not often). I realize there is a need however.

yeah I thought of support, even mentioned it as the only foreseeable negative to the package deals.

I was confused on one point though. When thinking of packages I thought you meant separate addons sold in a package together. I think a 5-pack for the same addons is a great idea a well. This would reduce the amount of support issues relatively because the same customer would be buying that package. And if they have an issue with one install, and then seek support, they will know how to handle it already with any future installs.

I think many developers/designers aren't going to see the value in this because in my experience, most developers and designers don't know a thing about business, no offense to any of you Creative types:).

One thing that designers and developers absolutely must consider in this is that not everyone is honest. I have spoken to a few hosting companies and developers that use c5 and they have admitted to me in reusing addons and not paying for a new license. They don't do it out of malice or greed but in an attempt to cut costs on a project. A Bulk package deal like this will make it easier to keep the honest people honest but still allow them to save money.

In the end though I think it comes down to just trusting your judgment. You have done a good job so far in getting c5 out to the community, and in providing a platform for developers and designers to earn some extra $$. So you obviously know a thing or two about business and how business ties into the web world. That said, this platform is still c5's and ultimately you set the rules. If people don't see the value at first they will over time when they are selling more addons per month. If they don't, they can always go develop for Joomla/Drupal and compete against thousands of similar addons that are free. As long as they aren't producing garbage then they won't get bogged down with support.

do it. I'm game :)

I see no fault either way. You guys don't act like the typical open sores crowd, so I think it's good that ya'll can eat off of this thing you have going on.
Its also good to bear in mind that 5 for 4 is also just a bigger price tag. The difference between $125 and $155 may not seem like much to some, but for others it puts things out of reach. Thus you end up selling one at $155 and making $55 instead of $25, or selling two at $125 and pulling $50. When you look at the inclusion from the slightly lower price and margin, the 'loss' of revenue between $50 and $55 shrinks. Realistically though, your 2 times as likely to sell 3 at 125 than you are to sell one at 155, meaning you actually make more.
An excellent way to do this, and in a way that promotes and rewards the higher expenditure for the consumer and producer is illustrated below.
Stardock used to have a pretty solid setup where one could put money into their account ahead of time (say $100 for 120 tokens) The games would cost like $25 or 15 tokens. It added some ease and flexibility, got the cash in Stardocks hands sooner than later and provided customers with periodically fantastic deals. This also allows the option of building functionality packs (a person pays for a trimmed version of an e commerce store), or bundling lesser versions of several good apps & things for a great price halfway through the next version dev cycle.
Credit cards actually use points and early payment rewards in a similar way.

I really hate the token system. As an end user I don't want to pay 50 bucks as a min token deposit to get that 10 dollar item so now I don't purchase. I would bet a ton of other users hate it too. I really really vote against this. (no offense)

no we won't be moving to "credits" ala istockphoto - too confusing.

the takeaway I have from this thread:

1) Yes, a discount for upfront bulk purchases on a single add-on is a good idea assuming the 3rd party developer wants it.
2) No, it doesn't make sense for themes, just add-ons.
3) For matters of taste and ease of development we'll make em 5-packs and the developer can choose what the price break will be - although we'll give them a default to override.

Thanks gang!