App Gambling
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I recently read an article from a guy back in 2009 focusing on the cost of the apps. This is my take... no offense intended; just something to think about:
http://www.philipwhuff.com/app-gambling-the-new-trend...
Check out the last few paragraphs referring to concrete5. Hopefully no one finds this offensive. Just speaking my mind from a concrete5 noob perspective.
http://www.philipwhuff.com/app-gambling-the-new-trend...
Check out the last few paragraphs referring to concrete5. Hopefully no one finds this offensive. Just speaking my mind from a concrete5 noob perspective.
I have to say here, that while I don't agree with the tone, I do agree with an important point that guy raises...
The fact is, phpBB is a big deal - so is vBulletin for that matter. Just about all major CMS's out there offer integration for it - except this one.
I love Concrete5. I actually had a medium to large project I wanted to build with it earlier this year. In the end, I didn't. Why?..
Well, it's because I'm not a PHP guru, or a mysql guru. While I want to be able to build and configure websites, I don't want to have to get involved with the guts of the software too much. One of C5's great strengths is it's themeing system, which means exactly that - I don't have to deal with needing some kind of immense knowledge of how to convert my design to a C5 theme - it's reasonably easy. However, I can't go coding a PHPBB5 plugin, the Discussion Forums module is not a great basis for the kind of community I and many others might like to build, and I need all the bells and whistles that comes with a forum such as phbBB or vBulletin.
For that reason, much as I wanted to go with C5, I had to strike it off the list. It just wasn't usable. Perfect in every other way, but utterly unusable because the only forums available for it were sub-par.
I am but one user, but given the number of discussion forums out there on the web, and given what I presume you would know about marketing, I am that one person that represents many others that are turned away from C5 because of this... the guy that posted that article is a case in point. He's yet another person turned away - and the funny thing is, if you were charging $55 for an addon that integrated phpBB into a C5 site, while a guy like that may still ahve complained a bit, he would probably also have used C5 for his site.
The fact is, phpBB is a big deal - so is vBulletin for that matter. Just about all major CMS's out there offer integration for it - except this one.
I love Concrete5. I actually had a medium to large project I wanted to build with it earlier this year. In the end, I didn't. Why?..
Well, it's because I'm not a PHP guru, or a mysql guru. While I want to be able to build and configure websites, I don't want to have to get involved with the guts of the software too much. One of C5's great strengths is it's themeing system, which means exactly that - I don't have to deal with needing some kind of immense knowledge of how to convert my design to a C5 theme - it's reasonably easy. However, I can't go coding a PHPBB5 plugin, the Discussion Forums module is not a great basis for the kind of community I and many others might like to build, and I need all the bells and whistles that comes with a forum such as phbBB or vBulletin.
For that reason, much as I wanted to go with C5, I had to strike it off the list. It just wasn't usable. Perfect in every other way, but utterly unusable because the only forums available for it were sub-par.
I am but one user, but given the number of discussion forums out there on the web, and given what I presume you would know about marketing, I am that one person that represents many others that are turned away from C5 because of this... the guy that posted that article is a case in point. He's yet another person turned away - and the funny thing is, if you were charging $55 for an addon that integrated phpBB into a C5 site, while a guy like that may still ahve complained a bit, he would probably also have used C5 for his site.
good point. i see single sign on as a great focus for the future
Best wishes,
(Pecked out on a mobile device...)
http://about.me/frz
Best wishes,
(Pecked out on a mobile device...)
http://about.me/frz
Wow, thank you - of anybody that might have responded, I'd not have expected it to be you!
I agree that a single login would be an immense step forward. Personally, I find myself hoping (almost praying!) that someone soon will add such an add-on to the C5 marketplace, because in all honesty, I really do love this CMS. It wouldn't need the whole 'make page from forum post' thing that Discussion Forums has (though it would certainly be a hell of a boon for some people if it were remotely possible), but just the ability to log in and share an avatar between the two would be amazing... and secondary to that (for those that are already running one or the other) would be the ability to import users from phpBB to C5, or vice versa.
I suspect not a hell of a lot of people say this, and maybe they should... Thank you for listening, and thank you for acknowledging the point positively. Apart from being a great CMS, this is the sort of thing I like C5 for :)
I agree that a single login would be an immense step forward. Personally, I find myself hoping (almost praying!) that someone soon will add such an add-on to the C5 marketplace, because in all honesty, I really do love this CMS. It wouldn't need the whole 'make page from forum post' thing that Discussion Forums has (though it would certainly be a hell of a boon for some people if it were remotely possible), but just the ability to log in and share an avatar between the two would be amazing... and secondary to that (for those that are already running one or the other) would be the ability to import users from phpBB to C5, or vice versa.
I suspect not a hell of a lot of people say this, and maybe they should... Thank you for listening, and thank you for acknowledging the point positively. Apart from being a great CMS, this is the sort of thing I like C5 for :)
Thanks.
We already have single sign-on with oracle authentication server and
SAML working around the office, but we want to change some stuff in
version 5.5 about how these authetication models work. You should
expect to see more of this stuff in the future.
best wishes
Franz Maruna
CEO - concrete5.org
http://about.me/frz
We already have single sign-on with oracle authentication server and
SAML working around the office, but we want to change some stuff in
version 5.5 about how these authetication models work. You should
expect to see more of this stuff in the future.
best wishes
Franz Maruna
CEO - concrete5.org
http://about.me/frz
I'm with Jordan on this one. I can't speak to your experience with the forums package, cause maybe it does need some improvement, or some competing forums packages (like a PHPBB concrete5 integration?). but the last paragraph in that "app gambling" post doesn't seem too accurate from my experience. most of the packages in the marketplace are well supported by their developers, who first have to go through a quality control check in the marketplace review process, and then tend to work with people to get things working if they have issues, even with sometimes really jacked-up sites. So yeah, getting packages to the point so that they just plug in and work with any website is one of the good things about the current marketplace approach. And I can't speak for everyone, but a lot of the developers really do really take the time to continue to improve them based on user feedback too.
I don't think there's any reason to be offended, he does fawn over concrete5's underlying architecture which of course we appreciate.
The reality is the App Store is certainly something we think of from time to time, but I think we are very much apples to their oranges. Things I buy from the app store for my iphone or ipad are generally luxuries. Angry Birds to pass some time on the john.. Flipboard to make scanning news more interesting... I can't remember the last time I bought something for either one of these devices that my business actually couldn't do without. We have a quickie IA tool we use on the iPad that's handy, but for anything major I still use OmniGraffle. Shopping the app store is a bit like having a nice lunch at a restaurant. Sure you need to eat, but really eating out isn't the only way to do it and that appetizer you're ordering is really more for your tongue than your belly. The best result an iPad/iPhone app is going to get out of me is "That's pretty cool!" never "This will make me rich!"
A CMS on the other hand isn't generally a luxury item you're wasting time with. It's something you need to use to achieve some other goal like run your business or organize your school. We're not really targeting the blogging market and have often said Wordpress is the best tool out there for navel gazing content. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, but in general we're looking at our customers as Agencies, Freelancers, Businesses and other groups that NEED a website to achieve a goal thats important to their overall success. That's why I have no issue with selling the Dealer Locator in our marketplace for $255 when iPhone apps generally cost a buck. As Jordan pointed out, build your own Dealer Locator that has functional parity and let me know if you sunk that much in your time into it or not. Or, riddle me this - if your business actually has "dealers" that need "locating" - should you think $255 is a lot of money?
In regards to the discussion forums add-on. I reject the view that it's abandon ware, but I accept parts of the underlying critique. We provide great support for our add-ons, and the Discussion Forums one works fine. It also has a feature that no other Discussion System has, the ability to turn a forum post into a page somewhere else in your site with a click. When you're thinking creatively about building a site for knowledge management, that's a pretty cool feature. That being said, no of course it has got no where near the bells and whistles that phpBB does or any number of other free discussion system has, and no, it never will. We're not actively pumping hundreds of hours into making it the end all be all of forum software. We also have a very public submission process for the PRB and we don't let politics get involved with approving things, so there's no reason someone else can't write their own and give it away or sell it... Or perhaps build a single signon add-on for phpBB and concrete5.. We're not getting in your way. Our Forums are there because someone needed them, we released them, and the sales help pay for our continued focus on the core. We will always be sure to make them work, but we're not trying to compete with other forum apps in the abstract.
The impression that we don't provide support (abandonware) or that our addons never get updated (hello, ecommerce2.0 please??) is simply inaccurate and somewhat dismissive. That's okay, I remember before we did this when we were just a services shop and I hadn't learned all the lessons I have about running a popular software project. I was very quick to judge software companies harshly for what I saw as less that absolutely perfect deliverables with strategies that didn't always make sense to me. Armchair quarterbacking is rampant online. You're always a click away from someone who is eager to tell you why Facebook or Twitter is horrible/brilliant - but so often the opinion comes from a guy in a coffee shop posting on their 15 minute break. Cool story bro.
If he wanted to be a bit more scathing and accurate, the real answer isn't the app store. It's drupal's modules directory. The reason we can "get away" with having a forum app that doesn't do everything a free one does and still sell it is simple. Ours actually works, it comes with support, and it easily installs without having to know what FTP is, and if that's important to you - that's at least $55 important to you.
Interesting take tho. Thanks for posting it.
The reality is the App Store is certainly something we think of from time to time, but I think we are very much apples to their oranges. Things I buy from the app store for my iphone or ipad are generally luxuries. Angry Birds to pass some time on the john.. Flipboard to make scanning news more interesting... I can't remember the last time I bought something for either one of these devices that my business actually couldn't do without. We have a quickie IA tool we use on the iPad that's handy, but for anything major I still use OmniGraffle. Shopping the app store is a bit like having a nice lunch at a restaurant. Sure you need to eat, but really eating out isn't the only way to do it and that appetizer you're ordering is really more for your tongue than your belly. The best result an iPad/iPhone app is going to get out of me is "That's pretty cool!" never "This will make me rich!"
A CMS on the other hand isn't generally a luxury item you're wasting time with. It's something you need to use to achieve some other goal like run your business or organize your school. We're not really targeting the blogging market and have often said Wordpress is the best tool out there for navel gazing content. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, but in general we're looking at our customers as Agencies, Freelancers, Businesses and other groups that NEED a website to achieve a goal thats important to their overall success. That's why I have no issue with selling the Dealer Locator in our marketplace for $255 when iPhone apps generally cost a buck. As Jordan pointed out, build your own Dealer Locator that has functional parity and let me know if you sunk that much in your time into it or not. Or, riddle me this - if your business actually has "dealers" that need "locating" - should you think $255 is a lot of money?
In regards to the discussion forums add-on. I reject the view that it's abandon ware, but I accept parts of the underlying critique. We provide great support for our add-ons, and the Discussion Forums one works fine. It also has a feature that no other Discussion System has, the ability to turn a forum post into a page somewhere else in your site with a click. When you're thinking creatively about building a site for knowledge management, that's a pretty cool feature. That being said, no of course it has got no where near the bells and whistles that phpBB does or any number of other free discussion system has, and no, it never will. We're not actively pumping hundreds of hours into making it the end all be all of forum software. We also have a very public submission process for the PRB and we don't let politics get involved with approving things, so there's no reason someone else can't write their own and give it away or sell it... Or perhaps build a single signon add-on for phpBB and concrete5.. We're not getting in your way. Our Forums are there because someone needed them, we released them, and the sales help pay for our continued focus on the core. We will always be sure to make them work, but we're not trying to compete with other forum apps in the abstract.
The impression that we don't provide support (abandonware) or that our addons never get updated (hello, ecommerce2.0 please??) is simply inaccurate and somewhat dismissive. That's okay, I remember before we did this when we were just a services shop and I hadn't learned all the lessons I have about running a popular software project. I was very quick to judge software companies harshly for what I saw as less that absolutely perfect deliverables with strategies that didn't always make sense to me. Armchair quarterbacking is rampant online. You're always a click away from someone who is eager to tell you why Facebook or Twitter is horrible/brilliant - but so often the opinion comes from a guy in a coffee shop posting on their 15 minute break. Cool story bro.
If he wanted to be a bit more scathing and accurate, the real answer isn't the app store. It's drupal's modules directory. The reason we can "get away" with having a forum app that doesn't do everything a free one does and still sell it is simple. Ours actually works, it comes with support, and it easily installs without having to know what FTP is, and if that's important to you - that's at least $55 important to you.
Interesting take tho. Thanks for posting it.
I personally don't really understand what that author's point is -- sounds like he's saying "I want everything for free". You get what you pay for. Yes, phpBB is free, but as the author admits, it's nowhere near as nice for building websites as Concrete5 is. If he doesn't think the $55 addon is worth it then he doesn't have to buy it and can build his own (what's that? it takes too much time to build your own? well, why do you think the addon costs $55 :)
I think his suggestion that the only reason there's a Concrete5 marketplace is because Apple did it first and made it popular and now everyone wants to rip everyone else off (or something like that?) shows a serious lack of empathy (in the sense of putting yourself in other people's shoes, not that he's a mean person). If he thinks there should be a free C5 forum addon, then he should build one. If can't / won't / doesn't want to build one, he should understand why no one else has either.
Just my 2 cents.