Expression Engine
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I hope the core C5 team don't mind this discussion. I'm looking for honest feedback about EE vs. C5, especially from anyone with EE experience.
I've been a staunch supporter of Concrete 5 for my main CMS, which fits my target demographic quite well. However, C5 is not without it's faults, and since the release of the 5.4 series has been plagued with a few nagging bugs that just won't seem to go away. I'm not worried about the odd bug, but what I'm finding is that they are not getting addressed; things like the Access Denied bug, global blocks not being global, a few other glitches. It also has performance problems to be perfectly honest. Moreover, there's a few functionality things that bug me a bit and a couple of things lacking.
That said, C5 has certainly been the best mid-range easy to deploy CMS I've used. I've yet to see in-context editing in another CMS like they C5, and if I make a 4 minute screencast, I find even the technologically challenged clients pick it up right away.
However, I'm a technology atheist. I won't blindly follow anything and always have my eyes open. I don't mind paying money (and in return charging for it) for a good, solid, well supported solution. Concrete 5 is free, but the addons are not for the most part, and there are some that simply should just be included, so really it's a not-free solution too. I'm at the point where if a client has a problem with paying for the software that's running their business's website, I'm probably not interested in the job anyway.
I've been looking at EE as an alternative. To be honest, I've never used it, but it looks like it might be a solution for the majority of my target clients. I like that it seems mature, well supported, has all the features you'd want, etc. One thing it's missing is in-context editing, a big plus for C5.
So, has anybody used EE in the past, and how did it compare to C5? Have you started used C5 instead, and why?
Again, I take nothing away from C5, it's probably the most advanced CMS I've ever seen from a management point of view (again, I don't have EE experience though). I've built about a dozen C5 sites, all in production. Kudos to the core team. Maybe I'm just expecting too much too, and seriously I'm trying really hard not to be a whiner, but I'm just looking for some open honest discussion on this.
By the way I've looked at just about every other CMS out there and they all suck compared to C5. Seriously. It's just this one possible exception with EE, and maybe I'll find that the grass is not greener anyway...
I've been a staunch supporter of Concrete 5 for my main CMS, which fits my target demographic quite well. However, C5 is not without it's faults, and since the release of the 5.4 series has been plagued with a few nagging bugs that just won't seem to go away. I'm not worried about the odd bug, but what I'm finding is that they are not getting addressed; things like the Access Denied bug, global blocks not being global, a few other glitches. It also has performance problems to be perfectly honest. Moreover, there's a few functionality things that bug me a bit and a couple of things lacking.
That said, C5 has certainly been the best mid-range easy to deploy CMS I've used. I've yet to see in-context editing in another CMS like they C5, and if I make a 4 minute screencast, I find even the technologically challenged clients pick it up right away.
However, I'm a technology atheist. I won't blindly follow anything and always have my eyes open. I don't mind paying money (and in return charging for it) for a good, solid, well supported solution. Concrete 5 is free, but the addons are not for the most part, and there are some that simply should just be included, so really it's a not-free solution too. I'm at the point where if a client has a problem with paying for the software that's running their business's website, I'm probably not interested in the job anyway.
I've been looking at EE as an alternative. To be honest, I've never used it, but it looks like it might be a solution for the majority of my target clients. I like that it seems mature, well supported, has all the features you'd want, etc. One thing it's missing is in-context editing, a big plus for C5.
So, has anybody used EE in the past, and how did it compare to C5? Have you started used C5 instead, and why?
Again, I take nothing away from C5, it's probably the most advanced CMS I've ever seen from a management point of view (again, I don't have EE experience though). I've built about a dozen C5 sites, all in production. Kudos to the core team. Maybe I'm just expecting too much too, and seriously I'm trying really hard not to be a whiner, but I'm just looking for some open honest discussion on this.
By the way I've looked at just about every other CMS out there and they all suck compared to C5. Seriously. It's just this one possible exception with EE, and maybe I'll find that the grass is not greener anyway...
Actually, the commercial license is $299 for 2.0, but it includes a few things like ecommerce that C5 does not. I'm a little concerned that I might find I need some of the other addons on top of the $300 as well.
It's a way different approach, and I have no doubt you're right about learning curve for end users. There may be pros and cons.
Ironically enough, they're releasing a 'junior' version called MojoMotor which is alot like a stripped down version of C5, in-context editing and all...
http://mojomotor.com/
It's a way different approach, and I have no doubt you're right about learning curve for end users. There may be pros and cons.
Ironically enough, they're releasing a 'junior' version called MojoMotor which is alot like a stripped down version of C5, in-context editing and all...
http://mojomotor.com/
I love EE and used to use it as much as possible. I just did a project for a client as a subcontractor to flesh out a wireframe, the first time I have used it in a while. Here is the issue I have with EE, clients refuse to update it. We customized fields, gave them long descriptions, used extensions to help them upload photos because the big upload to the right confused them. We tried everything, there is just no way around it, clients don't like the admin and never update their site.
We migrated over three sites to c5 and they update their site to the point its dangerous hehe.
Just saw your mojomotor link: this might fill in the gap for some users. I think EE's community however will not touch it if it doesn't allow the same back end development.
Steph
We migrated over three sites to c5 and they update their site to the point its dangerous hehe.
Just saw your mojomotor link: this might fill in the gap for some users. I think EE's community however will not touch it if it doesn't allow the same back end development.
Steph
We have used EE for several years for a wide variety of websites. It is a good general purpose tool but we are recommending it less often these days.
One reason is the disappointingly slow rollout of EE2. EE1 has been in limbo for the past couple of years (imho) with the only significant advances coming from its enthusiastic user/developer community. This would be fine except increasingly I find that we're paying for (and then supporting) add-ons that should be included in the core such as WYSIWYG content editing, navigation controls, and page-level metatags. Concrete5 (and several other CMS's) have drawn a better line between core vs add-on functionality.
http://expressionengine.com/overview/... says that "Commercial Product + Open Source = Perfection". That may have been the case in the past, but I don't buy it any more. EE depends on its third party developer community but it doesn't support them very well. Core development remains secretive and there is no central EE add-on repository/marketplace as you find with Concrete5, Drupal, Wordpress, etc...
Concrete5's in context editing is a great feature but it isn't necessarily useful for larger sites where content needs to be more structured. It depends on the type of site you're building. That being said, EE isn't necessarily a great tool for more complex app-like sites either. EE2 helps here to some extent but Drupal with CCK/Views now provides a simpler, more robust/scalable solution.
I just found out about Mojomotor from this thread - more secretive development! You have to wonder how much this product has contributed to the delayed release of EE2. In any event, Mojomotor looks like Concrete5 with less features and a price tag. Ironically, Mojomotor includes WYSIWYG content editing - something EE2 still lacks. Geez!
One reason is the disappointingly slow rollout of EE2. EE1 has been in limbo for the past couple of years (imho) with the only significant advances coming from its enthusiastic user/developer community. This would be fine except increasingly I find that we're paying for (and then supporting) add-ons that should be included in the core such as WYSIWYG content editing, navigation controls, and page-level metatags. Concrete5 (and several other CMS's) have drawn a better line between core vs add-on functionality.
http://expressionengine.com/overview/... says that "Commercial Product + Open Source = Perfection". That may have been the case in the past, but I don't buy it any more. EE depends on its third party developer community but it doesn't support them very well. Core development remains secretive and there is no central EE add-on repository/marketplace as you find with Concrete5, Drupal, Wordpress, etc...
Concrete5's in context editing is a great feature but it isn't necessarily useful for larger sites where content needs to be more structured. It depends on the type of site you're building. That being said, EE isn't necessarily a great tool for more complex app-like sites either. EE2 helps here to some extent but Drupal with CCK/Views now provides a simpler, more robust/scalable solution.
I just found out about Mojomotor from this thread - more secretive development! You have to wonder how much this product has contributed to the delayed release of EE2. In any event, Mojomotor looks like Concrete5 with less features and a price tag. Ironically, Mojomotor includes WYSIWYG content editing - something EE2 still lacks. Geez!
Hi hbartlett!
Yes, I share your opinion, I'm also neutral and see the technology from an objective perspective. But sometimes the quality is so poor that I can't silently recommend it. That's why I've the feel to understand why those people thought at that quality level.
I'm dissappointed by EE, because I can see more then just the sourcecode when I dive into their codebase. I can see their coding-skills. And the intelligence they can put into an implementation of a pattern that adaptively fits to the problem's solution.
I'm not criticizing the developers, but their angle of perspective regarding the different layers of functionality in their application. The UI is simply a "table-based" CRUD Application. You can create/read/update/delete things. But the errors lies in their UI layer which is the worst part on the CMS. I can't intuitively use it and it similar to joomla's ui concept imho. That's my opinion and I may be alone with it or not.
I've dived through the code of many Content Management Systems and I'm surprised about the majority of them. So many have semi professional codebases, that you wouldn't even start from, if you knew that...
Generally spoken I mean if you're deadly serious and you'd just evaluate the RMS-Module out of the entire sytem. I'd say it's the achilles verse of most CMS out there.
To be honest, I'd compare EE developers with Typo3 developers. And I don't like both's ideologies. Their idealogy goes like following from my standpoint: "Write sphagetticode which requires courses to understand, then call yourself an expert. And don't forget to add an expensive price tag.."
Well it's not worth breaking your head on topics like this, because it's mostly taste if you aren't objective. Well my conclusion is that I'd prefer C5 even if it's not that "mature" as EE in some parts.
Best regards
Fernandos
Yes, I share your opinion, I'm also neutral and see the technology from an objective perspective. But sometimes the quality is so poor that I can't silently recommend it. That's why I've the feel to understand why those people thought at that quality level.
I'm dissappointed by EE, because I can see more then just the sourcecode when I dive into their codebase. I can see their coding-skills. And the intelligence they can put into an implementation of a pattern that adaptively fits to the problem's solution.
I'm not criticizing the developers, but their angle of perspective regarding the different layers of functionality in their application. The UI is simply a "table-based" CRUD Application. You can create/read/update/delete things. But the errors lies in their UI layer which is the worst part on the CMS. I can't intuitively use it and it similar to joomla's ui concept imho. That's my opinion and I may be alone with it or not.
I've dived through the code of many Content Management Systems and I'm surprised about the majority of them. So many have semi professional codebases, that you wouldn't even start from, if you knew that...
Generally spoken I mean if you're deadly serious and you'd just evaluate the RMS-Module out of the entire sytem. I'd say it's the achilles verse of most CMS out there.
To be honest, I'd compare EE developers with Typo3 developers. And I don't like both's ideologies. Their idealogy goes like following from my standpoint: "Write sphagetticode which requires courses to understand, then call yourself an expert. And don't forget to add an expensive price tag.."
Well it's not worth breaking your head on topics like this, because it's mostly taste if you aren't objective. Well my conclusion is that I'd prefer C5 even if it's not that "mature" as EE in some parts.
Best regards
Fernandos
I know that you sometimes have no time to really be fair about things like "that" and all that matters if that feature X must work regardless of what you use. And that this could force you to goto bed with the evil.
But hey it's your decision and we won't take it off for you. That said I don't even recommend anything to you. You decide.
But hey it's your decision and we won't take it off for you. That said I don't even recommend anything to you. You decide.
Thanks all for participating in this discussion. To be honest since I started this thread I've looked into it, and in all honesty you might as well use Joomla if you're going to use EE. I don't see the point, and I'm not going to invest any more time into researching it.
For me there are 3 basic choices for CMS now, and you can equate them to computer operating systems:
Wordpress (Windows) - I used to write this off as blog software only, but with the 3.0 release there are major improvements. It's also extremely well supported, has an enormous community and plugins for anything you'd want. There are of course some downfalls, like so many third party addons from who knows where, easily broken by bad coding/theming, updates constantly and because it's so popular many people attacking the security. But, it still has it's place and is useful for a news/blogging type site for sure.
Concrete5 (OSX) - Just works out of the box. Addons come from a controlled source. Rapidly growing community with support that is getting better and better. Attentive owners. Can't do absolutely everything, but it's getting closer every day. Can be more expensive to implement than Wordpress, with less features for some things, but it's all designed to integrate nicely.
Drupal (Unix) - Big pain in the butt to implement, but when it's running is rock solid. Everything is a nuts and bolts affair when making changes. Can be made to run anything of any size. Suitable for large, custom developed projects and web apps. Not for the faint of heart to implement or run.
Outside of those 3, I'm rarely looking at anything else. Drupal doesn't come into play much at all, actually. Actually there's one other CMS I've used - Website Baker - that I'd equate with a netbook - comes in handy for really light tasks lol.
But, generally speaking, C5 ends up being the right solution 70% to 80% of the time now. As far as EE goes, it's a mess as far as I'm concerned, with one of the snootiest communities I've ever seen, so I no longer have any interest.
For me there are 3 basic choices for CMS now, and you can equate them to computer operating systems:
Wordpress (Windows) - I used to write this off as blog software only, but with the 3.0 release there are major improvements. It's also extremely well supported, has an enormous community and plugins for anything you'd want. There are of course some downfalls, like so many third party addons from who knows where, easily broken by bad coding/theming, updates constantly and because it's so popular many people attacking the security. But, it still has it's place and is useful for a news/blogging type site for sure.
Concrete5 (OSX) - Just works out of the box. Addons come from a controlled source. Rapidly growing community with support that is getting better and better. Attentive owners. Can't do absolutely everything, but it's getting closer every day. Can be more expensive to implement than Wordpress, with less features for some things, but it's all designed to integrate nicely.
Drupal (Unix) - Big pain in the butt to implement, but when it's running is rock solid. Everything is a nuts and bolts affair when making changes. Can be made to run anything of any size. Suitable for large, custom developed projects and web apps. Not for the faint of heart to implement or run.
Outside of those 3, I'm rarely looking at anything else. Drupal doesn't come into play much at all, actually. Actually there's one other CMS I've used - Website Baker - that I'd equate with a netbook - comes in handy for really light tasks lol.
But, generally speaking, C5 ends up being the right solution 70% to 80% of the time now. As far as EE goes, it's a mess as far as I'm concerned, with one of the snootiest communities I've ever seen, so I no longer have any interest.
I agree with most of this but I wouldn't characterize EE's community as snooty and Drupal is quickly getting past being Unixy.
I would seriously reconsider EE especially with EE2.1 being just released. I have worked with Joomla,Drupal, WebsiteBaker, Textpatern, Typo3...etc. and never again will waste so much time - especially Joomla and Drupal.
EE is great with a lot of features out of the box for relatively small investment. I like their ideology that it is not a bloat out of the box but true that some technically challenged users have hard time (lack of Wysiwyg out of the box mainly). This can be remedied with choice of 800+ plugins - See:http://devot-ee.com/add-ons/ such as inline editing etc.
Here is a list of all the features:http://expressionengine.com/overview/features...
To be honest, user experience of EE depends on your skills as developer. It would be much like handing someone a notepad and them complaining back how that notepad has not made them a great selling writer.
One of the big pluses of EE is the community...it is one of the best out there, I am not sure why you felt the way you did.
Documentation is one the best I have seen...and I live in the world of tech docs so I am not sure what Fernandos is taking about spaghetti code here.
True strength of EE is its templates and ability to turn your mockup design into features feature being forced into some 'block' or css elements set by developers. Their content (weblog/channel) can be twisted into any type of workflow and has custom fields heaven. It IS different as it uses its own set of tags rather than smarty templates etc. but here is its power.
Eg. in some other cms you will be forced to look for a plugin to show 'recent entries from forums'...in EE this is accomplished by simply choosing tags:
'show me 10 recent forum posts and limit its titles by 15 characters when displayed'
If you don't like the tags...you can always turn PHP support in templates and do tweaks your way. They also have a 'querry' plugin which allows you to slap raw SQL queries to produce results/output.
Many users are confused or are simply 'end users' of apps such as WP where they are used to clicking through plugins and feeling that instant gratification. To make these types of users happy I would assume that cost of EE will double if you go with comercial plugins...which is still not a bad deal for paid AND actively supported system.
EE is not like that...it takes time to setup but it can be setup in any way you like...from sites for simple blogs to shopping carts etc. It has its shortcomings and it is not for everyone and for every project. :)
Release of MojoMotor is a great idea as many users felt that EE can be 'too much' for some simple sites. Sure, you can use WP or something else but do give me a call when you site is hacked and you are in panic mode finding out that source was some plugin made in India by a 12yrs old code enthusiast.
But...seems like you have decided to scrap it so I wish you good luck on your projects. My only regret is not discovering it before using other CMS listed above.
If you have any question or want to give it another shoot feel free to get in touch or post back.
To be fair I have only played with C5 for 5mintues so I can't really compare the two but can I share my EE experience and I have yet to find a system that matches its power.
All the best!
EE is great with a lot of features out of the box for relatively small investment. I like their ideology that it is not a bloat out of the box but true that some technically challenged users have hard time (lack of Wysiwyg out of the box mainly). This can be remedied with choice of 800+ plugins - See:http://devot-ee.com/add-ons/ such as inline editing etc.
Here is a list of all the features:http://expressionengine.com/overview/features...
To be honest, user experience of EE depends on your skills as developer. It would be much like handing someone a notepad and them complaining back how that notepad has not made them a great selling writer.
One of the big pluses of EE is the community...it is one of the best out there, I am not sure why you felt the way you did.
Documentation is one the best I have seen...and I live in the world of tech docs so I am not sure what Fernandos is taking about spaghetti code here.
True strength of EE is its templates and ability to turn your mockup design into features feature being forced into some 'block' or css elements set by developers. Their content (weblog/channel) can be twisted into any type of workflow and has custom fields heaven. It IS different as it uses its own set of tags rather than smarty templates etc. but here is its power.
Eg. in some other cms you will be forced to look for a plugin to show 'recent entries from forums'...in EE this is accomplished by simply choosing tags:
'show me 10 recent forum posts and limit its titles by 15 characters when displayed'
If you don't like the tags...you can always turn PHP support in templates and do tweaks your way. They also have a 'querry' plugin which allows you to slap raw SQL queries to produce results/output.
Many users are confused or are simply 'end users' of apps such as WP where they are used to clicking through plugins and feeling that instant gratification. To make these types of users happy I would assume that cost of EE will double if you go with comercial plugins...which is still not a bad deal for paid AND actively supported system.
EE is not like that...it takes time to setup but it can be setup in any way you like...from sites for simple blogs to shopping carts etc. It has its shortcomings and it is not for everyone and for every project. :)
Release of MojoMotor is a great idea as many users felt that EE can be 'too much' for some simple sites. Sure, you can use WP or something else but do give me a call when you site is hacked and you are in panic mode finding out that source was some plugin made in India by a 12yrs old code enthusiast.
But...seems like you have decided to scrap it so I wish you good luck on your projects. My only regret is not discovering it before using other CMS listed above.
If you have any question or want to give it another shoot feel free to get in touch or post back.
To be fair I have only played with C5 for 5mintues so I can't really compare the two but can I share my EE experience and I have yet to find a system that matches its power.
All the best!
Just yesterday, and for the second time I was evaluating EE. I agree, it's powerful and has all these features.
The main reason why I used C5 is, accessibility to end users.
I used Joomla for over 2 years and almost no customer (end user) could easily understand how to manage it.
I had a look at the admin page of EE too, and I can already see it's really not that easy for those simple desktop users to work with it.
C5, IMHO, makes it extremely easy for any one to just navigate their site, and when they reach the page they need to edit, just click edit and do what they want.
Just my 2c.
The main reason why I used C5 is, accessibility to end users.
I used Joomla for over 2 years and almost no customer (end user) could easily understand how to manage it.
I had a look at the admin page of EE too, and I can already see it's really not that easy for those simple desktop users to work with it.
C5, IMHO, makes it extremely easy for any one to just navigate their site, and when they reach the page they need to edit, just click edit and do what they want.
Just my 2c.
As is said, some people need simple sites and for such caliber simple tools will do the job.
I been testing C5 here and there and it is nice from content editing perspective but I have to say I feel restricted with respect to design and content types as well as uneasy about how C5 can handle feature requests by clients. In other words, how far can it be extended without my having to write raw php.
One of the reasons why I stay away from WP and its plugins galore without any guarantee or dev path and if I have to build plugins myself just to feel 'safe' then I would rather pay for the system that eliminates this fear AND has the features I can easily 'turn on/of' rather than 'build'.
If the client can not afford the CMS and they want an Open Source then so be it, just make sure you pencil in good protection for yourself when (and it will) their site gets hacked and broken. If they can not afford $200-$300 for application then they certainly can not afford my time. I am not willing to 'waste' my time learning some freebie system They thought (or heard of) would be the best fit simply because it is free.
Nothing in this world is free...just the matter of what you want to pay for...time,application,support,training to use a new system...etc. etc. there is always a cost so something to consider on your ROI ;)
I been testing C5 here and there and it is nice from content editing perspective but I have to say I feel restricted with respect to design and content types as well as uneasy about how C5 can handle feature requests by clients. In other words, how far can it be extended without my having to write raw php.
One of the reasons why I stay away from WP and its plugins galore without any guarantee or dev path and if I have to build plugins myself just to feel 'safe' then I would rather pay for the system that eliminates this fear AND has the features I can easily 'turn on/of' rather than 'build'.
If the client can not afford the CMS and they want an Open Source then so be it, just make sure you pencil in good protection for yourself when (and it will) their site gets hacked and broken. If they can not afford $200-$300 for application then they certainly can not afford my time. I am not willing to 'waste' my time learning some freebie system They thought (or heard of) would be the best fit simply because it is free.
Nothing in this world is free...just the matter of what you want to pay for...time,application,support,training to use a new system...etc. etc. there is always a cost so something to consider on your ROI ;)
Your statement that if the client has a problem paying for the software he uses to drive his site ... is the exact reason you should probably forget about EE, elegant as it may be.
There are other CMSs out there, open source, that are great. Another contender is CMS Made Simple. Whenever I have a client who needs documents uploaded and displayed for download by users and/or private/premium content, I turn to CMSMS rather than a WP plugin. But I see to my delight that c5 also has this feature, but since I've only been delving into it for the past 24 hours, I need to see for myself exactly what it can do. So far, loving it.
But check out some of the other CMSs out there that are open source (also check out SilverStripe, TextPattern and sNews) for those clients who are on a tight budget (as many are these days). Just my two.
There are other CMSs out there, open source, that are great. Another contender is CMS Made Simple. Whenever I have a client who needs documents uploaded and displayed for download by users and/or private/premium content, I turn to CMSMS rather than a WP plugin. But I see to my delight that c5 also has this feature, but since I've only been delving into it for the past 24 hours, I need to see for myself exactly what it can do. So far, loving it.
But check out some of the other CMSs out there that are open source (also check out SilverStripe, TextPattern and sNews) for those clients who are on a tight budget (as many are these days). Just my two.
I've tried them all, even built my own CMS many years ago:)
The speed at which I can get something to work is a big decider for me.
I'd used Joomla and WP for a few years and I was researching an alternative. EE, Drupal, SilverStripe, MODx, Typo3. I spent weeks looking at them, wrestling with the (MODx grrrr). But C5 took me about 1 hour to be up and running. It's just so...well "obvious".
Apart from the in context editing, the ease of which you can apply templates is what swung it for me. (OH and the fact that clients love it)
The simple logical process of using C5 is so cool.
The speed at which I can get something to work is a big decider for me.
I'd used Joomla and WP for a few years and I was researching an alternative. EE, Drupal, SilverStripe, MODx, Typo3. I spent weeks looking at them, wrestling with the (MODx grrrr). But C5 took me about 1 hour to be up and running. It's just so...well "obvious".
Apart from the in context editing, the ease of which you can apply templates is what swung it for me. (OH and the fact that clients love it)
The simple logical process of using C5 is so cool.
This sums up my process of finding and falling in love with Concrete5 as well. I still use other frameworks and languages from time to time, but for CMS-based sites C5 is the best I've found. And I think it will be the "last great open source CMS", because all of the new developments I'm seeing in the CMS field these days are with hosted applications (for example, Weebly, Yola, Jimdo, Webvanta, Squarespace, etc.). These hosted systems are all incorporating the "in-context editing" approach (although they have different names for it), along with theme templates that "stay out of your way" as a designer. But while they are great solutions for people that don't have a huge budget and don't want to deal with server / hosting issues, they are not good solutions for designers and developers that are building custom sites for clients that are willing to pay for something unique and powerful.
Who knows... maybe another open source CMS will come along one day that is even better than C5. But C5 has such a head start at this point (and continues to evolve itself), that I don't see it happening any time soon.
-Jordan
Who knows... maybe another open source CMS will come along one day that is even better than C5. But C5 has such a head start at this point (and continues to evolve itself), that I don't see it happening any time soon.
-Jordan
Templating is not bad. custom addon development is not even as close to open and understandable as C5.
The strength of EE is stability. plain and simple.(frankly speaking though, I have many C5 sites up and the only stability issues I have had at all were my own fault, I think C5 is very stable actually) I personally think that many users here just pick really crappy hosts. jm2c I'm VERY happy with both of my hosts.
The real loss though, is ease of use. Clients take about twice as long to pick up EE as C5.m And I think that is mostly because of the front end editing.
The core team @ EE are nice people though, and very flexible.
In the end, I choose C5 for two main reasons, extensibility and usability.
Chad