Is C5 a cure for insanity?
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According to this article from Yahoo many computer programmers are going insane.http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/programmers-suffering-bunch-syndro...
I was surprised that article didn't talk more about the stress and time cost of having to relearn 50% of your job every few months as technologies change or as you work on different types of projects. I'd say learning takes up so much time, often unpaid, that this contributes to a big part of the pressure to produce a lot in a relatively small amount of time left for coding.
Could C5 help developers avoid the pitfalls of working to the point of insanity? I could imagine if all my projects were in C5 I would feel a lot more organized. That's why I've rebuilt 3 of my own sites in C5 and made 1 custom theme and used it on all of them. I'm hoping that will simplify the work. But to be honest, I often feel like the only way to have a reasonable workflow is to have a team of 8 or 10 working on a single website. Which is quite different from 1 developer working on 8 or 10 websites.
I was surprised that article didn't talk more about the stress and time cost of having to relearn 50% of your job every few months as technologies change or as you work on different types of projects. I'd say learning takes up so much time, often unpaid, that this contributes to a big part of the pressure to produce a lot in a relatively small amount of time left for coding.
Could C5 help developers avoid the pitfalls of working to the point of insanity? I could imagine if all my projects were in C5 I would feel a lot more organized. That's why I've rebuilt 3 of my own sites in C5 and made 1 custom theme and used it on all of them. I'm hoping that will simplify the work. But to be honest, I often feel like the only way to have a reasonable workflow is to have a team of 8 or 10 working on a single website. Which is quite different from 1 developer working on 8 or 10 websites.
As a postman you think you understand the stress of being a full-time professional developer? Maybe you think it's easy because you do it as a part-time hobby. Sure you can master 5 or 10% of programming and development because you have flair for it, or natural talent in reading and understanding code. But that probably wouldn't be good enough to get you a full-time job or to make a living. You expect me to believe if you made even a few thousand a month off software or other development that you would deliver mail just for fun? Obviously you deliver mail because you don't yet know what programming is about, you haven't mastered anything yet.
I've taken friends to the hospital because they spent 50+ hours working on a project without food or sleep. These were skilled professionals and you can't tell me they should have had a better "flair" for programming. They risk collapse at times because they will do anything to solve a problem and finish a project. And I may not know you well enough to judge but I bet if you walked a day in their shoes you would quit and go deliver some mail for a pay check. That's just how I feel about what you wrote, it's a insult to people who know this industry.
I've taken friends to the hospital because they spent 50+ hours working on a project without food or sleep. These were skilled professionals and you can't tell me they should have had a better "flair" for programming. They risk collapse at times because they will do anything to solve a problem and finish a project. And I may not know you well enough to judge but I bet if you walked a day in their shoes you would quit and go deliver some mail for a pay check. That's just how I feel about what you wrote, it's a insult to people who know this industry.
> You expect me to believe if you made even a few thousand a month off software or other development that you would deliver mail just for fun? Obviously you deliver mail because you don't yet know what programming is about, you haven't mastered anything yet.
Nope. I didn't expect you to believe I am a postman.
Elitism isn't the sole domain of software, however. It just has more than the median.
Nope. I didn't expect you to believe I am a postman.
Elitism isn't the sole domain of software, however. It just has more than the median.
Well you're right about that I couldn't think of anything more elitist than to say because I am such a natural talent I will disregard and invalidate the experiences and challenges of thousands of my peers.
I should have thanked you for answering though because nobody else did. I think many of them are too stressed and overworked to answer right now. Or they cried after reading that article.
I should have thanked you for answering though because nobody else did. I think many of them are too stressed and overworked to answer right now. Or they cried after reading that article.
Omg gang.
My sense is this thread was started half in jest. Yes, concrete5 can save
you a lot of time once you know how it works. No, its not magic and of
course its yet another thing new to learn that will take time and energy.
It strikes me that two different people can approach the same job in
completely different ways. There's people who wake and work in an emergency
room saving (or losing) lives for 48 hour shifts with calm aplomb. There's
people who find cooking dinner to be a stressful nightmare. Interestingly
enough, sometimes that's the same person.
I've also noticed that folks who write articles for a living are often in
the business of creating drama when none exists.
Is there an epidemic of stressed developers sweeping our nation? Maybe. I'm
pretty stressd out, and at this point I just manage programmers. Would
there be any less stress if we dug holes for a living? Probably not.
Digging holes for a living is tough work.
Can we make an effort to not take "cultural" threads personally? Thanks.
That'd help with /my/ stress..
;)
best wishes
Franz Maruna
CEO - PortlandLabs Inc
My sense is this thread was started half in jest. Yes, concrete5 can save
you a lot of time once you know how it works. No, its not magic and of
course its yet another thing new to learn that will take time and energy.
It strikes me that two different people can approach the same job in
completely different ways. There's people who wake and work in an emergency
room saving (or losing) lives for 48 hour shifts with calm aplomb. There's
people who find cooking dinner to be a stressful nightmare. Interestingly
enough, sometimes that's the same person.
I've also noticed that folks who write articles for a living are often in
the business of creating drama when none exists.
Is there an epidemic of stressed developers sweeping our nation? Maybe. I'm
pretty stressd out, and at this point I just manage programmers. Would
there be any less stress if we dug holes for a living? Probably not.
Digging holes for a living is tough work.
Can we make an effort to not take "cultural" threads personally? Thanks.
That'd help with /my/ stress..
;)
best wishes
Franz Maruna
CEO - PortlandLabs Inc
Has anyone out there read the "Death March" book mentioned in the article?
In short....no.
No C5 can not cure something that at it's root is personal and centric around identity and self-confidence. (or lack thereof)
I only code C5 applications. Have for years.
And yet I am constantly having to remind myself that it's just work. Not my life.
I work to live....not live to work. But the devil is after my time and attention! lol
When you have children and work from home...this paradigm is so much more magnified.
Why any man/woman would chose to work over wrestling with your 6 year old or playing wii bowling is baffling. And yet....I find myself often having to force myself to stop. Stop working..and go play.
We all want to be "in demand" in our minds eye. But be careful what you ask for. Customers simply do not give a rip about you or your family at the end of the day.
You have to stop trying to be everything to everyone. And just go love your life and your family and do your best. And that has to be enough.
I would grade myself on the mid realm of MVC and OOP design pattern skill level. But so far as productivity, I would rate myself much higher than most.
The reason?? I say no a lot to things that don't matter...and yes to things that do.
I'm ok not being the best programmer. I'm not ok being a mediocre husband and father.
All that said...I still work way to hard sometimes. But often that's because I'm an idiot and procrastinate till that last possible second :-P he he
mynh2c
ChadStrat
No C5 can not cure something that at it's root is personal and centric around identity and self-confidence. (or lack thereof)
I only code C5 applications. Have for years.
And yet I am constantly having to remind myself that it's just work. Not my life.
I work to live....not live to work. But the devil is after my time and attention! lol
When you have children and work from home...this paradigm is so much more magnified.
Why any man/woman would chose to work over wrestling with your 6 year old or playing wii bowling is baffling. And yet....I find myself often having to force myself to stop. Stop working..and go play.
We all want to be "in demand" in our minds eye. But be careful what you ask for. Customers simply do not give a rip about you or your family at the end of the day.
You have to stop trying to be everything to everyone. And just go love your life and your family and do your best. And that has to be enough.
I would grade myself on the mid realm of MVC and OOP design pattern skill level. But so far as productivity, I would rate myself much higher than most.
The reason?? I say no a lot to things that don't matter...and yes to things that do.
I'm ok not being the best programmer. I'm not ok being a mediocre husband and father.
All that said...I still work way to hard sometimes. But often that's because I'm an idiot and procrastinate till that last possible second :-P he he
mynh2c
ChadStrat
Good points, principles like work/life balance and making time to play, prioritizing, these are all universal so C5 can't take credit for them! I try to get out and play tennis whenever I can myself and if I can't do it one day, I make sure it's top of the list the next day.
I do feel certain technologies are more capable of supporting a work/life balance. In my experience with Drupal and WP I found Drupallers far more stressed out and overworked than WP developers. If I rated my own stress levels on a 1-10 scale in working with those 3 CMS systems I'd say 9 for Drupal, 5 for WP and 3 for C5. So I can still work with WP and feel pretty good, but if I have to touch something in Drupal right away I'm smashing my desk in frustration. And this is despite the fact that I actually know far more about Drupal than WP, but that doesn't make it easier to work with. I have maybe 20 hours in Drupal for every 1 hour in C5, but I can already do more in C5.
For example the other day I was looking at a client's site who uses your ProForms and ProEvents addons for a booking system. They wanted to add a new payment option to ProForms similar to PayPal. Although I had never seen that addon before, once I realized that the field types were Attribute Types, right away I knew where to look and figured out what would need to be done. That doesn't mean it will be really easy to do, but at least the structure is easy to understand. And it's consistent... dozens of other addons use the same structure for Attributes, Blocks and other things. To me that lowers stress... just knowing that things are well organized.
I do feel certain technologies are more capable of supporting a work/life balance. In my experience with Drupal and WP I found Drupallers far more stressed out and overworked than WP developers. If I rated my own stress levels on a 1-10 scale in working with those 3 CMS systems I'd say 9 for Drupal, 5 for WP and 3 for C5. So I can still work with WP and feel pretty good, but if I have to touch something in Drupal right away I'm smashing my desk in frustration. And this is despite the fact that I actually know far more about Drupal than WP, but that doesn't make it easier to work with. I have maybe 20 hours in Drupal for every 1 hour in C5, but I can already do more in C5.
For example the other day I was looking at a client's site who uses your ProForms and ProEvents addons for a booking system. They wanted to add a new payment option to ProForms similar to PayPal. Although I had never seen that addon before, once I realized that the field types were Attribute Types, right away I knew where to look and figured out what would need to be done. That doesn't mean it will be really easy to do, but at least the structure is easy to understand. And it's consistent... dozens of other addons use the same structure for Attributes, Blocks and other things. To me that lowers stress... just knowing that things are well organized.
Hey awesome. So great to hear.
Yeah, make sure you take a look at the Wepay payment type in PF for a good example of API use.
Yeah...I just think it's personal. Different for everyone maybe?
There are times I have to work at not working. Part of that is because I love what I do. But part of it because I'm an overachiever for sure.
Hopefully good conversations like this in the community help keep us all in check and remind us to not be so stressed out and overworked.
I kind look at it as though C5 is just a tool. And while that can be stressful in and of itself at times (thinking of C5 task permissions model that has zero docs)...its the clients and my own lack of constraints that can make or break a good week for me.
C
Yeah, make sure you take a look at the Wepay payment type in PF for a good example of API use.
Yeah...I just think it's personal. Different for everyone maybe?
There are times I have to work at not working. Part of that is because I love what I do. But part of it because I'm an overachiever for sure.
Hopefully good conversations like this in the community help keep us all in check and remind us to not be so stressed out and overworked.
I kind look at it as though C5 is just a tool. And while that can be stressful in and of itself at times (thinking of C5 task permissions model that has zero docs)...its the clients and my own lack of constraints that can make or break a good week for me.
C
This is one of those great threads where I find myself agreeing with everyone.
I have seen programmers genuinely suffering from imposter syndrome and I have seen programmers who would probably be better at their job if they caught a healthy dose of imposter syndrome. But is it unique to software development? I know accountants, PR people, sales reps, doctors and more who work too hard because they think that others are better than them.
There are some who thrive on programming and some who really should have chosen a different career path. The same applies for many professions.
I have seen software developers fall apart under the stress. I have also seen those in other high-expectation employment also fall apart under stress.
I agree that working from home makes it difficult to achieve a work/play divide. My Father worked from home since I was a toddler, never touched a keyboard, and also had to make an effort to separate work from family.
Do technologies like concrete5 make a difference? Only transiently. As soon as any productivity enhancing technology becomes mainstream, expectations rise to increase pressure back to the 'normal' excessive level. This has been going on ever since Fortran was invented to make assembler programming more efficient. Or since the steam engine was invented to replace horse or sail power.
So is there anything unique about programming stress and insanity? The only thing I can think of is that, even after 70-ish years of computers, software projects are still habitually under-estimated by a factor of 2 or more. Even then, I suspect there are other kinds of project that fall into the same trap.
I have seen programmers genuinely suffering from imposter syndrome and I have seen programmers who would probably be better at their job if they caught a healthy dose of imposter syndrome. But is it unique to software development? I know accountants, PR people, sales reps, doctors and more who work too hard because they think that others are better than them.
There are some who thrive on programming and some who really should have chosen a different career path. The same applies for many professions.
I have seen software developers fall apart under the stress. I have also seen those in other high-expectation employment also fall apart under stress.
I agree that working from home makes it difficult to achieve a work/play divide. My Father worked from home since I was a toddler, never touched a keyboard, and also had to make an effort to separate work from family.
Do technologies like concrete5 make a difference? Only transiently. As soon as any productivity enhancing technology becomes mainstream, expectations rise to increase pressure back to the 'normal' excessive level. This has been going on ever since Fortran was invented to make assembler programming more efficient. Or since the steam engine was invented to replace horse or sail power.
So is there anything unique about programming stress and insanity? The only thing I can think of is that, even after 70-ish years of computers, software projects are still habitually under-estimated by a factor of 2 or more. Even then, I suspect there are other kinds of project that fall into the same trap.
Anyone can be a programmer, but not everyone is good at it. That's why they get so stressed. They don't have a natural flair for it and have to work 500% more just to keep their head above water.
Programming is a means to an end and writing code a single aspect. It's a bit like calling a polyglot a translator. "Real translators" can do simultaneous translation in a number of languages whilst cooking and holding a dinner party-it's effortless. The same is true for "real programmers". Most "real programmers" spend more time thinking about what they are going to do than writing code. That is just the way to communicate to the dumb-ass computer what you want.
I'm *not* a programmer real or otherwise, by the way. I'm a postman. I just write software because I can and don't earn enough as a postman to pay others to do it. I do have a flair for it, though, in 8 programming languages.
Oh. And new technologies only come along about every 5-10 years. Most of what people call "new tech" is the same as the "old-tech" with more complexity added to make them feel clever.
And finally. Concrete5 has given me my share of insanity. It's written in the MVC paradigm (Muddled Verbose Confuser, I call it). Although I don't buy into the hype about MVC generally, I think it's particularly badly suited for a file based scripted environment. Saying that. The concrete 5 team know their onions because they have a decent product *in spite* of MVC.