This would be a great CMS if....
Permalink
The support forums were more active..
And when questions get replies, it's usually snooty programmers who know the code inside out, replying to folks as if they are thick.
I'm not going by personal experience, I've only posted 2 help threads, got 1 helpful reply.
I'm going by my experience of searching the forums for issues I have/had. The majority of times the questions go unanswered, or it gets a vague reply by someone who is a coder. I can't see this CMS taking off until the forums become more user friendly.
And when questions get replies, it's usually snooty programmers who know the code inside out, replying to folks as if they are thick.
I'm not going by personal experience, I've only posted 2 help threads, got 1 helpful reply.
I'm going by my experience of searching the forums for issues I have/had. The majority of times the questions go unanswered, or it gets a vague reply by someone who is a coder. I can't see this CMS taking off until the forums become more user friendly.
you have just confirmed my point exactly..
"Users lacking PHP skills."
"In over their head."
Most people looking for a useable CMS have NO php skills, and most have no html skills either. 95% of webmasters are not fluent in php, html, css etc but you all assume that they should be if they want to manage a website. I'm knowledgable in all of the above, but the man on the street is not.
I understand the coding, and I still can't get answers to problems I have. How does the layman feel?
"Users lacking PHP skills."
"In over their head."
Most people looking for a useable CMS have NO php skills, and most have no html skills either. 95% of webmasters are not fluent in php, html, css etc but you all assume that they should be if they want to manage a website. I'm knowledgable in all of the above, but the man on the street is not.
I understand the coding, and I still can't get answers to problems I have. How does the layman feel?
and what will kill this CMS is the price of the marketplace addons. Not very expensive individualy, but the price adds up. And the fact they are restricted to 1 domain. I only started using concrete5 because I assumed if I buy an addon I could use it across my portfolio. The cost of the addons restricted to 1 domain will kill concrete5, many CMS offer all this for free (GPL)
I was willing to purchase addons, but this restriction has convinced me that I will be switching platforms.
I was willing to purchase addons, but this restriction has convinced me that I will be switching platforms.
well, that's completely your choice certainly.
But here is how I look at it. Lets say you need a blog, a calendar, and a news page.
You can purchase all of those for under $100. Install them, and with little to no effort have your site with great functionality up in less than an hour. In addition to that, if you have purchased addons, it is a REQUIREMENT for the developers to provide the absolute best support you can find anywhere.
I know I have my iPhone with me at all times and there are many evenings of mine that are all but ruined trying to keep things on "lamens" terms.
For you to custom code all that would take weeks, if not a month.
And as far as I am concerned, frankly speaking, there is not another CMS that even comes close to the user friendly front end in context editing that C5 provides. And I can speak from experience, I have yet to have a client that is not blown away by how simple C5 is to use from an end user publishing perspective.
I used Joomla for years...I hate it. It never mattered how hard I tried, I could not get end users to learn the back end.
Not only that, but the support for addons was awful, and the core got hacked regularly because of malicious addon downloads.
I'd rather have expense for a really good, easy to use CMS with some easy to use addons...than free crap.
And say what you want about WP, it's not a CMS in my opinion.
I would encourage you to stick with it for a while and get client feedback b4 making the stern decision that everything in life should be free.
C
But here is how I look at it. Lets say you need a blog, a calendar, and a news page.
You can purchase all of those for under $100. Install them, and with little to no effort have your site with great functionality up in less than an hour. In addition to that, if you have purchased addons, it is a REQUIREMENT for the developers to provide the absolute best support you can find anywhere.
I know I have my iPhone with me at all times and there are many evenings of mine that are all but ruined trying to keep things on "lamens" terms.
For you to custom code all that would take weeks, if not a month.
And as far as I am concerned, frankly speaking, there is not another CMS that even comes close to the user friendly front end in context editing that C5 provides. And I can speak from experience, I have yet to have a client that is not blown away by how simple C5 is to use from an end user publishing perspective.
I used Joomla for years...I hate it. It never mattered how hard I tried, I could not get end users to learn the back end.
Not only that, but the support for addons was awful, and the core got hacked regularly because of malicious addon downloads.
I'd rather have expense for a really good, easy to use CMS with some easy to use addons...than free crap.
And say what you want about WP, it's not a CMS in my opinion.
I would encourage you to stick with it for a while and get client feedback b4 making the stern decision that everything in life should be free.
C
I've deployed concrete5 for a college environment. I have 400+ pages transferred into it. I have 42 users with editing rights. I've spent less than $200 on addons.
The fact that an open-source application can perform at this level is amazing. concrete5 runs with the big, for-profit CMSes out there that are specialized for vertical markets.
It is extremely customizable. There are very talented programmers on these forums. The add-ons work as expected and provide great optional functionality to your site.
The site I manage has remained stable, serves up 180k pageviews a month and is easy to maintain and update.
The editing and administrative interfaces are intuitive and easy for my editors to pick up. I have yet to find another CMS that has an easier to use, user interface.
The fact that an open-source application can perform at this level is amazing. concrete5 runs with the big, for-profit CMSes out there that are specialized for vertical markets.
It is extremely customizable. There are very talented programmers on these forums. The add-ons work as expected and provide great optional functionality to your site.
The site I manage has remained stable, serves up 180k pageviews a month and is easy to maintain and update.
The editing and administrative interfaces are intuitive and easy for my editors to pick up. I have yet to find another CMS that has an easier to use, user interface.
I'm not saying it's a bad CMS, I think it's great.
I would love to see this many responses to a thread by a guy struggling to use the CMS. Instead of defending it, try supporting it by helping the newbs.
I would love to see this many responses to a thread by a guy struggling to use the CMS. Instead of defending it, try supporting it by helping the newbs.
I can get all that for free from various CMS. I don't need to spend x amount of pounds to realise the cms is not for me!!
I tried it, I didn't like the support. If I'm expected to pay for addon modules, I expect some level of support.
I tried it, I didn't like the support. If I'm expected to pay for addon modules, I expect some level of support.
I think you need to specify what addon you payed for and did not get the support you feel you deserve.
In addition, I did see a post you made asking for help referring to "a block" in the forums. However, did you submit a support ticket in said blocks "support & feature request" area?
What block are you referring to?
C
In addition, I did see a post you made asking for help referring to "a block" in the forums. However, did you submit a support ticket in said blocks "support & feature request" area?
What block are you referring to?
C
I think the difference in price usually feels very different when it is a personal site than when it is a site you are developing for a client.
If a client pays me to build a site for them, and I say, "there's an add-on for that, it'll cost you $30," we all win. It's cheaper for them to go with the add-on than paying me to develop it myself, and now I don't have to be responsible if something goes wrong. If there's a bug, we contact the developer of the add-on, and they fix it. Win for me, win for the client.
Now I agree that when it comes to a personal site, it feels a little different. I think, "I can have a WordPress blog for free. I wish I could have a Concrete blog for free, too", but the truth is that this stuff does take time and energy to make, and if I don't like the offerings I am totally free to make my own or go elsewhere. That's life, and if I decide to use Concrete for one thing and WordPress for another, that's okay too. In fact, install the free iframe add-on and add the blog into your Concrete site for free.
I don't ask my users to know any code to use my add-ons. That, I feel, is one of the biggest benefits to having a ready-made add-on available. For $35 you can buy an add-on to add Flash Video to your site. It'll auto-generate the thumbnails, and it's easy as cake to use. If that isn't what you're looking for, that's okay too.
I'm not asking you to go to work everyday for free. I don't think its so unreasonable to pay for a product ... especially if there's free support and it will work out of the box.
If a client pays me to build a site for them, and I say, "there's an add-on for that, it'll cost you $30," we all win. It's cheaper for them to go with the add-on than paying me to develop it myself, and now I don't have to be responsible if something goes wrong. If there's a bug, we contact the developer of the add-on, and they fix it. Win for me, win for the client.
Now I agree that when it comes to a personal site, it feels a little different. I think, "I can have a WordPress blog for free. I wish I could have a Concrete blog for free, too", but the truth is that this stuff does take time and energy to make, and if I don't like the offerings I am totally free to make my own or go elsewhere. That's life, and if I decide to use Concrete for one thing and WordPress for another, that's okay too. In fact, install the free iframe add-on and add the blog into your Concrete site for free.
I don't ask my users to know any code to use my add-ons. That, I feel, is one of the biggest benefits to having a ready-made add-on available. For $35 you can buy an add-on to add Flash Video to your site. It'll auto-generate the thumbnails, and it's easy as cake to use. If that isn't what you're looking for, that's okay too.
I'm not asking you to go to work everyday for free. I don't think its so unreasonable to pay for a product ... especially if there's free support and it will work out of the box.
I'm not even going to touch the add-on part of this debate because I think its been answered many times in many places.
Regarding support, I'm not sure what more you can reasonably expect. When people post questions that have some real information behind them and have demonstrated they've tried finding a solution on their own, the threads typically get replies. They're not always solved right away, but there's plenty of people here who want to help.
The reality is the person you're describing is going to have a hard time finding a painless solution for free. I don't really care what the size of any community is, if the question is "HOW DO I EDIT A PAGE?!?" or "THIS WONT INSTALL" - what really can someone do with that, particularly when it's entirely an volunteer effort to help.
That being said, the commercial add-ons do have a support system where developers WILL deal with that level of support or customers can get a refund.
I posit that the concerns you're voicing are voiced on EVERY open source project, and even some commercial ones. This is life. If you're willing to read and think and figure things out, you will be able to here - and people will be helping you all along the way. But you gotta try. If you're looking for a fast solution and you're not interested in doing the legwork, there's an awesome jobs forum here too. ;)
Regarding support, I'm not sure what more you can reasonably expect. When people post questions that have some real information behind them and have demonstrated they've tried finding a solution on their own, the threads typically get replies. They're not always solved right away, but there's plenty of people here who want to help.
The reality is the person you're describing is going to have a hard time finding a painless solution for free. I don't really care what the size of any community is, if the question is "HOW DO I EDIT A PAGE?!?" or "THIS WONT INSTALL" - what really can someone do with that, particularly when it's entirely an volunteer effort to help.
That being said, the commercial add-ons do have a support system where developers WILL deal with that level of support or customers can get a refund.
I posit that the concerns you're voicing are voiced on EVERY open source project, and even some commercial ones. This is life. If you're willing to read and think and figure things out, you will be able to here - and people will be helping you all along the way. But you gotta try. If you're looking for a fast solution and you're not interested in doing the legwork, there's an awesome jobs forum here too. ;)
As a developer, I can say I try VERY hard to fully support my addons in the quickest, kindest way possible. But I have to be honest, sometimes users are just in way over their heads.
Users lacking Php skills really isn't the frustrating part for me, it's more of the lack of detail in regards to the issue, and a lack of common problem solving skills.
Often, I see a complaint, and in the sum...it says this: "it don't work!" And that's it.
Programmers have to have complete details of environment, pre and post conditions, server info, versions....ect.
To your point though, if anything, support tickets, or issue reporting should demand complete information as a requirement.
It's just hard to solve problems with vague info provided.
But to be fair, realize this is still a relatively small community, and that puts more strain on the handful of developers and core team available...and frankly...there are just days they are not checking.
I think in contrast to you prediction, when more active users get involved, more help will be available.
In the mean time, if there is something you do need help with, please post. You might be surprised at how helpful many of the developers are.