I prefer the new interface. There is quite a bit to take in for someone used to the old interface, but it takes very little time to get used to, and the new bells, and whistles make that warming up period completely worthwhile.

As for it not being simple for new comers, I would have to disagree, as several site owners that have had their sites upgraded recently are having a much easier time with their 5.5 sites. Maybe their just lucky, but I have heard the same from a few other C5 ers.

As for expensive addons, I can only say that if I had put several weeks worth of work, and a skill set that took 10 years to gain into putting something amazing together I would set my prices to at least make a return. With most of these costly addons being very specific in their function they may only be useful to a handful of sites, so they have to set the price to make the return I would assume. The other big thing is that most of the authors of these paid add on's have gifted so many free add ons to the marketplace that I could never complain, and certainly couldn't make them myself, and I am extremely happy they are there as the alternative is weeks of custom coding work. (imagine trying to make the discussion package from scratch for an example)

With even a $200 dollar budget you can get what you need for a top tier site, and to me that's reason enough to recommend C5. With a zero dollar budget you can still make something top tier very easily. The $600 - $800 cost you mentioned I just don't see happening unless your making something like a social network, and in that case $800 dollars is an amazingly cheap price to pay. C5 may have changed its look, but its still the best thing going, and in my eyes its getting better every day.

If you want the sidenav back, we have this in the marketplace:
http://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/traditional-dashboard/...

However - although so many think - it's not supposed to be a dashboard interface replacement in any sense. It's a MIGRATION TOOL so that your old users get used to the new dashboard UI and are more comfortable with it.

As on these forums, we've seen many people irritated by the dashboard change and saying they don't like it, after some time they usually get used to it. It's just case of what you have been used to in the first place, e.g. I could see the same thing with Microsoft Office changing their UI for 2007 version.

So, this add-on offers a way to make getting used to it quicker and lessen the confusion of old users with the dashboard re-do.

Antti / Mainio

Don't agree with your comments, not defending C5 like mad, but if your aimming to professional work $200+ in addons that will save you many,many hours of development its nothing.

The focus does not appear to be the mass market from concrete5 the company. I think they are mostly interested in the premium(high margin) site owners.

Wordpress is going to be a lot better if cost is an issue.

Honestly the large clients we work for could care less about the marketplace Mkly. The stuff in there works very well for smaller sites where someone is spending 3-4 figures.

If you're spending 6 figures on a website, chances are your image gallery is gonna get built from scratch to your needs, and not come out of the marketplace.

Mostly I agree with Andrew on this one. concrete5 does more for free than much of our competition does after a week of configuring modules. Sure you can find stuff for sale in our marketplace. Add everything up in there you get a total value of around 17k. Do you need to buy all of that stuff to make your website? Nope. If you have any chops as a php dev and a little time you wouldn't need to buy any of that stuff, ever.

Moreover you can find stuff for sale for any open source CMS; drupal, wordpress - even joomla! included. What you can't find is a marketplace those projects carefully curate with a decent support/refund policy and the promise that the modules will actually work. That's the only real difference here, if that's not appealing - don't use the marketplace.

Easy there tiger.

I was just going by what you had said about your enterprise clients before. They are your concern. Also, about trying to get to the big three.

Your words not mine. Just trying to give him an honest opinion. No offence intended.

edit: I should clarify that "I think they are mostly interested in the premium(high margin) site owners." was in reference to the enterprise customers.

How do you figure it costs $95 to reset a password? That features been in the core for forever.

If you're talking about this:

http://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/secret-questions/...

I've only ever seen banks and the like need something like this.

This is a quick breakdown of costs for a basic website able to host online files for clients to be able to download via login/membership (private data) and small sales.
ECommerce with basic addons $ 255, Downloads $50, calendar $35, Forms $95, Domain Mapper $125, Membership $80, Page counter $35, ANalytics $35, Secret Question PASWORD RESET $95....
Total for basics $ 805.00
Extras to make site nicer: Scrolling $25, subscriptions $80, User list $50, File search $ 25, plus misc items approx $150.00 (image displays, slides and basic tricks)
Total for a small website: over $1100.00
I'm not saying developers shouldn't make money, but when I show someone C5 and quote them just the cost of getting the software require compared to others then it has an effect. Many addons still require installation, modification and customizing so the price doesn't stop with initial purchase.
Many of the setups I see use only the free or low cost addons and are fine. Limited budget.
The point is maybe Concrete5 is more for the "six figure" websites, rather than the 3 or 4 figure ones?
As stated C5 is more for the "Premium (High Margin) Site owners" rather than the average Joe.

Anyway "The dashboard"
The general layout and use of C5 is great, and once setup its very easy for non tech types to edit, BUT my view of the changes to the dashboard is echoed from numerous end users. Its awkward.
Where in the older version you would select your section (tab) and make or check necessary settings and changes. Now you need to click on every option one at time, and generally theres no way of stepping back. Click on dashboard and you end up with a screen with nothing on it. Click on menu, click on option, change one setting click on save, screen disappears. NEXT. Click on the menu, click option 2, change setting click ok, NEXT.
Just seems cumbersome compared to the old when a range of settings and option were visible and easier to find.
We looked at the addon to mimic the old version 5 for $20 but its easier to simply use version 5 at this stage for some. (This also resolves the compatability issues with 5.5)
The dashboard is primarily there for the admin, or technical user, which usually want to see and adjust relevant options and data easily. Doesn't have to look "simple", "Clean" or "Trendy" but HAS to be practical and convenient.
Personally I'd rather see a screen full of options laid out in nice categories that can be adjusted together.
Anyway, can't please everybody.

I don't see the site you described costing any where near that much. Sell your memberships through e-commerce $125, and attach to beanstream for payment gateway $35 for add on, no other add ons will be needed. Put the download list file on a page only available to members, free add-on herehttp://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/list-files-from-set/....

Calendar doesn't seem all that necessary to the operation you described, but you could easily embed, an html snippet for something lower functioning than the ones in market, $0. The form system in the core is pretty robust, and I cant see why you would need an advanced form for a private download site ? Domain mapper doesn't seem like something needed for the stated operation either, as it is for multi site control, and if that's something you need than $125 is a dirt cheap price to pay, but unnecessary for a single site operation. Membership is covered by e-commerce, and the auto expiration choices for users already built in. Page counter has a free add-on herehttp://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/page-hit-counter/...

Traffic, and stats by Tony is a unbelievable bargain at $35, and secret question password reset, doesn't seem necessary as the forgot password reset is free, and secret questions for this type of site I cant see being used very often if at all. Most people comfortable making digital purchases online should do fine without it, and some may even see it as a hindrance. Slider $25. Subscriptions are covered by the auto expiration options in user groups, members page is included with core, and is auto generated when you turn public profiles on, if you want them private, add permissions to the page. takes two clicks. File search, can easily be handled by directing the core search to search under the pages your files are on. Misc items 150, still don't see it.

Total costs for a monetized file download site in my eyes comes up to $220.00 and does exactly what you described. This type of site I also wouldn't consider basic. Static site for a company is basic, E commerce enabled, information download, with exceptional tracking for marketing purposes...... not so much. It may feel basic considering the add ons outlined bring the build time down to virtually zero, but that doesn't make it basic.

Sorry for making that detailed, I just wouldn't want someone seeing that, and believing that it would cost them over 5 times what it actually takes, no offence.

Forgot a ready to go uber customizable theme, add $30, Total $250

Very good Ekko -- sounds about right to me!

I do agree with some of the changes in the Dashboard being cumbersome. I've gotten used to it, but he's right about not being able to easily back up. Everything is constantly hiding, and you move from one section to another completely different section, instead of progressing through tabs, etc. I do wish there was more of a tree or better breadcrumbs, etc.

On a related note, and I don't want to start any hijacking here, but the same thing is happening with operating systems -- both windows and mac, in the quest to make everything "easier" they are removing more and more core functions and burying them even deeper, hiding most of the settings and toolbars, and even scroll bars unless you specifically choose to show them.

Don't go so far as to make it stupid. He's right -- it takes more clicks and more screens to do the same thing. I haven't counted, so feel free to prove me wrong, but it sure seems like it takes more work to navigate the Dashboard than it used to.

It sure does look shinier though!

it takes fewer clicks to do everything.
moving forward means leaving comfortable things behind.

best wishes

Franz Maruna
CEO - concrete5.org
http://about.me/frz

Frz, I believe this has been discussed earlier but when 5.5.0 was released I made as an example the case when you're about to launch the site. Let's put these as requirements:
1. Change the site name to correct one
2. Put cache on and change its settings
3. Add google analytics code

So, let's say both situations start from the dashboard home page because I usually login straight by putting /dashboard to the url.

And, please don't answer with "use intelligent search", I won't. I like my things organized.

Numbers in the following example point to the number of clicks.

Concrete 5.4.2.2:
1. Click to "Sitewide Settings"
2. Change site name and click "Save"
3. Set cache on, change its settings and click save
4. Paste google analytics code and click save
(you're done)

Concrete 5.5.2.1:
1. Click "System & settings"
2. Click site name
3. Change site name and click "Save"
4. Go back to System & Settings (either with the tiny arrow or dashboard hover)
5. Click "Cache & Speed Settings"
6. Change the settings and click "Save"
7. Go back to System & Settings
8. Click "Tracking codes"
9. Paste in tracking code and click "Save"
(you're done)

With intelligent search you could avoid the "go back" steps BUT that's just not how I use computers, and I highly doubt it will ever be.

With my knowledge of maths 9 > 4.

Sorry, just wanted to point out that they actually have a point there.

Best,
Antti / Mainio

Well yes, there's always a slower way to do things. However your
example doesn't ring true for me.

You seem to be starting from the dashboard in the first path. Why
would you be there? I think there's an additional click before your
first step where you have to goto dashboard, wait for the graph to
load, etc. THEN you get to click System & Settings.

My point is in the past (5.4) there was only one way to get to stuff,
and that way was basically happenstance. There's no rhyme or reason on
why different settings were in different parts of the dashboard pages.
It's cool that after years of using concrete5.4 you're comfortable
with how stuff got thrown together in the dashboard pages, but take a
new persons view for a second. Why is all this stuff all over the
page? There's no explanation of what anything is. All you want to do
is change your site name and you're staring down scary looking cache
settings? It's a mess. I recognize it's a mess you're familiar with,
but that's all it is. The mess you know.

Now there are multiple ways to get to stuff, and there's less
confusing stuff in your way. For your example, yes I could click my
way though as you describe. I could also just hit Tab and start typing
"site n" and then hit return. No clicks at all. When I am then on the
site name page, I don't have to understand anything but the site name.
I don't have to wonder if this save button will impact those settings
over there, or not. It's cleaner, and I'm sorry, it's absolutely
faster to get to. Sure, if you have to change a dozen things at once,
and those things used to be on the same page in 5.4, yes we've made it
more steps. However in my experience, these bulk changes happen
perhaps once in a site's lifetime, while quickly getting to the clear
cache button happens all the time. (Hit Tab, type clear, hit return -
no click.)


So yeah, I get that things changed and change is always hard. I also
get that lots of folks report after giving it a chance, 5.5 is much
easier to use and get where you need to be.

Regardless, decisions were made about half a year at this point. Time
to move on gang.

best wishes

Franz Maruna
CEO - concrete5.org
http://about.me/frz

Yeah, I wasn't saying I hate 5.5, I've already gotten pretty comfortable with it as I've many times stated here. Just pointing out where they are also probably coming from.

And I answered to your first question "why would you start from dashboard home" in the previous message: that's usually how I log in.

Yes, I also agree those things you only have to change probably 1 time, but you were saying all the things are faster to do which is not entirely true IMO.

I just don't like using the intelligent search. And I also think typing one letter counts as "one click" if we take that path in this conversation. ;)

No hard feelings, I just wanted to point out that they probably had a point there.

Best,
Antti

No hard feelings, of course.

I feel like we're splitting hairs here and it's kinda a moot point.


best wishes

Franz Maruna
CEO - concrete5.org
http://about.me/frz

Yeah, sure, the overall progress is still going to right direction! :)

These things are quite minor issues, the bigger improvements take the lead.

Also, one point I think why I usually do those tasks in that order is because of the old UI, it suggested you would do them at the same time them being in the same screen...

My final reply on this matter is I have 7 small sites setup using concrete 5 and 2 waiting in the wings. 5 Have been using V5 for a couple of years. 2 Are new to C5 and I have 2 new sites yet to finish basics for them.
I upgraded 3 of the 5 to version 5.5 and immediately copped flack from 2 site owners. 3rd one okay with it. "Wheres the admin gone?"
The primary complaint was they didn't like the hidden options - too hard to find things. One was convinced to keep using it for awhile, the other was totally adamant about switching back. (That was not an easy task!)
The other 2 are happy staying with version 5 at this stage. (The old "if its not ?&%&%$$ 'broken', don't fix it" attitude. )
The client who I temporarily talked into accepting the changes is also hinting at changing CMS partly due to changes and also to addons and extra features he wants. He'll end up changing because he is a little more experienced with basic website structures.
Out of the 2 new clients, both with very minimal experience with websites. They both liked the idea of frontend editting but weren't impressed with additional overheads and the complexity of the backend, in comparison to the V5 that I had originally shown them.
Both decided to go with Joomla (against my initial suggestion) as "it looks easier to understand and maintain?" - I like joomla but its a more complex system. - Anyway. Choices were made!
Don't take it the wrong way, I still recommend C5 to clients and friends who are not overly experienced with websites and CMS, and still feel its easier to use on their behalf, BUT the changes ARE influencing some people.
This current trend to "Simplify" everything is fine for a simple applications, but I don't feel it suits the more advanced functions such as administrating a website. Users want it in your face, so its quick and easy to use. Don't go the Apple way of complex sub, mini, submicro options buried deep in the bowels of the program.
Lastly, the smart search that everything seems to use, is fine if you know the full name of the item your looking for!Such as changing the name: "Website Name" "Domain Name", "Site Name", "Label" "Logo Name" "Logo", "Header Name", "Mainpage Name" - ?.Old method:Click Sitewide" - Change Site Name- Save! Done!
Like many changes in life, not everybody will embrace them, but may have to put up with them, or look for alternatives.

To go to the extreme, I personally would literally prefer one single-page dashboard with ALL back-end settings over the current dashboard. That's overboard, obviously, but really, the old layout wasn't that bad. I almost wish things were a bit more modular, so they could be grouped differently if so chosen, but again, that's probably a lot of overhead.

I *have* gotten used to the new layout... but as programit said -- this is the back-end we're talking about. The front-end -- anything used by the end-user / website owner -- needs to be sleek and polished. The back-end simply needs to be functional. Hiding everything and putting one setting on a page is working backwards, in my opinion.

I really, really don't want to get into it over something like this, because really, I do love concrete5 overall. I'm just quite adamant about keeping things simple -- and by simple, I don't mean one setting on one page, I mean simple to use. My absolute main complaint above all else is the inability to simply back up a screen in the dashboard.

The search feature, as much as frz seems to love it, is a bit of a joke to me. It's a bit like replacing the start menu with a simple search box, really -- I know what program I want to open, and I know where to find it. Do I really have to search for it?

I don't know. That's about all I have to say about the matter, because I don't like to complain. I just don't like the lack of being open to suggestion or comment, with the frank "this is better. this is newer. trust me." attitude.

My $0.02.

Guys, these decisions were made quite some time ago. Of course if there are things that can be dialed in to tighten up the UI were eager to do it. In that vein, specific granular thoughts are generally easier to work with.

Sure, I can see the appeal of one huge master settings page for the pro who is setting up a new concrete5 install. That did come up in the design process. Unfortunately, building that, and maintaining the architecture we have now at the same time will be more than twice the work and likely create lot of inconsistency bugs.

While you find intelligent search a joke, I and many others do not.
The start menu you say we've replaced with it actually would be the dashboard dropdown, which simply wasnt there before. I fail to see how being able to rollover dashboard and directly get to add user or sitemap without having to wait through the dashboard landing page is somehow harder or inefficient.

I dunno guys, we've done an awful lot of talking and listening on this stuff this year, so again while I appreciate change is hard, I can't really get with the "you guys don't listen" meme. It's Saturday morning and the CEO is posting to the forums explaining UI decisions made half a year air. That strikes me as about as responsive as anyone can get. Of course I could (and at this point likely should) have someone simply post "thanks so much for the feedback, we appreciate it!" to these threads and move on. I'm certainly not trying to be dismissive, you just gotta give me something I can work with if you want to hear more than "hey it is what it is at this point"

For example, we're pondering ways to make the dashboard dropdown more configurable in 5.3. That'd be something people could use that continues this discussin and the UI forward

Best wishes,
(Pecked out on a mobile device...)
http://about.me/frz

You guys might want to take a look at this:
http://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/traditional-dashboard/...

It doesn't bring you back all the views from older concrete5 versions but it gets rid of the "everything is hidden" problem. The basic reason why we created this add-on was to help migrating old users to the new UI. I think for totally new users, the new UI is not a problem.

There are now 2 traditional dashboard addons in the marketplace. Maybe one of those will make your clients happy. Mainio's addon has kept one site owner I work with happy because he likes to browse to where thing are without having to know too much like he did on 5.4.

Personally, now I have got used to the 5.5+ dashboard I quite like it, but I am using it all the time so have good recollection on where things are and what to search for.

If you like the old feel, this addon nicely and easily brings some of that back while keeping some of the new features.

http://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/chadstrats-dashboard/...

ChadStrat

The old dashboard was fantastic and I think the new one is even better. The intelligent search alone is a godsend. The fact that you can make changes to properties and the like without having to go to another page is a huge time saver.

Sure I didnt like it and felt lost at first but it only took one hour to get used to it and realise the benefits.

Yes a few tiny things could do with tweaking but overall the new dashboard is awesome.

If most people take the time to use it first they'll realise it too. I could have (like so many people) started complaining straight away but realised that the core team would have made all those changes for a reason. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and thought I should experience it for myself first before berating them and.. Once I played with, I came to realise those reasons were usabilty, efficiency and a great workflow... so no complaints for our end. Not from us and most certainly not from our clients, in fact every single of one of them prefers the new layout and how everything is readily available literally at the end of their fingertips.

For us, the list of likes is already more than double the list of dislikes. I could sit here and write a whole dissertation on why the new system is better than the already awesome system but I feel like it will just fall on deaf ears.

I find concrete5 to be a great product with a great team behind it. Not many companies can pull that off (apart from Apple). It seems like most peoples complaints arise from not wanting to work outside of their comfort zones but believe it or not.. this new layout quickly becomes your new comfort blanket... and it is warm, safe and oh so comfortable. Just give it a chance! Forwards and upwards!

A huge thumbs up to the core team from the UK community!

I really couldn't agree more -- that's why I don't want to come across as actually complaining.

I'm just putting out a word of caution that "simple to use" doesn't necessarily mean "one setting on a page", and that I'm just a bit worried about how this may keep going. Don't go too far with it. I definitely do like the new dashboard, I just don't want to be pushed into completely relying on the search, etc. to do what I need to do.

Again, I do like it. I think we did lose some things from the old dashboard, and I do think we gained more than we lost, but proceed cautiously. :)

-
http://www.shedscene.com/image/cache/Pent%20Bike%20Shed-500x500.jpg...

The only thing that I've found a little hard to get over is the way sets are in file manager now. I use to be able to put an image in 2 or more categories and then sort with 2 or more categories checked. Now there is only an option to select 1 category from a dropdown. Not as useful if I have say a slideshow on the home page and one elsewhere on the site and want to categorize by slideshow and page. Beyond that it took a bit of getting use to but it works.