Documentation and Forums are confusing
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Hello all
I understand that everybody in here is volunteering in helping others. I really appreciate that and want to thank you for that.
Being a webdesigner and not a hardcore php programmer I really like the way c5 works in general and I built several sites with it.
I want to share my experience I make every once in a while when visiting the forums or c5 help:
Short version:
Answers are very specific/incomplete assuming that the one who asks understands every bit of php and concrete5 under the hood.
Longer version:
Issues are very hard for me to track. For instance it took me days (honestly!) to fingure out a way to implement a navigation system into a template. (Thanks to Andrew:http://www.concrete5.org/documentation/how-tos/primer-auto-nav-bloc... )
And I still don't know whether this method is the best: I insert an autonav block into a global scratchbook and then insert the latter into a default page of my theme in order to have it on every page and being able to administer it from one single point. (See: for everyone that has messed with a default page setting and global scratchbooks, it is clear what I am saying. Everyone else asks know: What does he talk about?....)
Now I' fought the whole day (5hrs, now, honestly) with a customization of the tinyMCE - I just wanted some extra knobs and the ability to define my own styles for the styles dropdown of the editor. I still didn't figure it out. There is a patch around that I installed, there are many answers that stop half way. For instance: there is this marvellous customization file from someone that would do everything I want, but the styles of my typography.css don't appear anymore. I have no idea why. Same with the built in: with "advanced" the styles appear but I want to customize the buttons. With the default "customize" content (under sitewide settings) the styles from typography don't appear anymore! Argh.
My humble conclusion:
c5 is great. Regarding usability it is superior to every other cms I checked (there were many). I will most likely continue to work with it. But for webdesigners the start (so far, I'm using it for several months!) is really very hard. All help/tutorials assume so much additional knowledge that I do not need with other cmses or they're well documented.
My Plea:
Please explain step by step. Please refer more to other ressources, when the beginning and/or the end of your piece of explanation is already explained somewhere else. (Yes it costs tons of time and is frustrating to read "this part has been answered before" - where, in good heavens!? ;-) "Forum Search" most likely brings me tons of results. You may only refer to it like I did above with Andrew's autonav primer.
I would gladly make help tutorials for beginners and intermediate when someone is explaining the basics to me. But I would therefore really need to know and not to guess every other time.
Have a wonderful day.
Alex
I understand that everybody in here is volunteering in helping others. I really appreciate that and want to thank you for that.
Being a webdesigner and not a hardcore php programmer I really like the way c5 works in general and I built several sites with it.
I want to share my experience I make every once in a while when visiting the forums or c5 help:
Short version:
Answers are very specific/incomplete assuming that the one who asks understands every bit of php and concrete5 under the hood.
Longer version:
Issues are very hard for me to track. For instance it took me days (honestly!) to fingure out a way to implement a navigation system into a template. (Thanks to Andrew:http://www.concrete5.org/documentation/how-tos/primer-auto-nav-bloc... )
And I still don't know whether this method is the best: I insert an autonav block into a global scratchbook and then insert the latter into a default page of my theme in order to have it on every page and being able to administer it from one single point. (See: for everyone that has messed with a default page setting and global scratchbooks, it is clear what I am saying. Everyone else asks know: What does he talk about?....)
Now I' fought the whole day (5hrs, now, honestly) with a customization of the tinyMCE - I just wanted some extra knobs and the ability to define my own styles for the styles dropdown of the editor. I still didn't figure it out. There is a patch around that I installed, there are many answers that stop half way. For instance: there is this marvellous customization file from someone that would do everything I want, but the styles of my typography.css don't appear anymore. I have no idea why. Same with the built in: with "advanced" the styles appear but I want to customize the buttons. With the default "customize" content (under sitewide settings) the styles from typography don't appear anymore! Argh.
My humble conclusion:
c5 is great. Regarding usability it is superior to every other cms I checked (there were many). I will most likely continue to work with it. But for webdesigners the start (so far, I'm using it for several months!) is really very hard. All help/tutorials assume so much additional knowledge that I do not need with other cmses or they're well documented.
My Plea:
Please explain step by step. Please refer more to other ressources, when the beginning and/or the end of your piece of explanation is already explained somewhere else. (Yes it costs tons of time and is frustrating to read "this part has been answered before" - where, in good heavens!? ;-) "Forum Search" most likely brings me tons of results. You may only refer to it like I did above with Andrew's autonav primer.
I would gladly make help tutorials for beginners and intermediate when someone is explaining the basics to me. But I would therefore really need to know and not to guess every other time.
Have a wonderful day.
Alex
poor guy...
cool answer
Hi Alex,
I am sorry that you are having such trouble figuring out how to make C5 do what you want. I agree that it is easier than any other CMS I've used, but it still could use some better documentation.
I don't have specific answers to your questions but wanted to leave a comment so that people don't see this thread and think that nobody in the community is going to be helpful when they have problems.
In regards to the navigation issue -- I know what you mean, as there is no overarching guide to how you use the system. Hopefully over time this can be improved. In addition to Andrew's excellent how-to's, you may also find a "recipes" site I am working on useful:
http://c5cookbook.com
Another member of the community, "remo", has some helpful tutorials on his site as well:
http://www.codeblog.ch/category/concrete5/...
BTW, if your navigation menu is exactly the same on every page of the site, you can also hard-code it into the template itself, so you don't have to mess with the scrapbook and page defaults. Just put this code in your template file ("default.php", "left_sidebar.php", etc.):
As for the TinyMCE issues -- yeah that thing is incredibly difficult to deal with. I don't think this is specific to Concrete5 though, it has always given me problems regardless of which system I'm working in. I suggest maybe looking to the TinyMCE forums for help on that stuff?
Anyway, just didn't want you to think nobody can be of help.
And if you do want to come up with some beginner tutorials, I'd be happy to help with that -- just let me know.
-Jordan
I am sorry that you are having such trouble figuring out how to make C5 do what you want. I agree that it is easier than any other CMS I've used, but it still could use some better documentation.
I don't have specific answers to your questions but wanted to leave a comment so that people don't see this thread and think that nobody in the community is going to be helpful when they have problems.
In regards to the navigation issue -- I know what you mean, as there is no overarching guide to how you use the system. Hopefully over time this can be improved. In addition to Andrew's excellent how-to's, you may also find a "recipes" site I am working on useful:
http://c5cookbook.com
Another member of the community, "remo", has some helpful tutorials on his site as well:
http://www.codeblog.ch/category/concrete5/...
BTW, if your navigation menu is exactly the same on every page of the site, you can also hard-code it into the template itself, so you don't have to mess with the scrapbook and page defaults. Just put this code in your template file ("default.php", "left_sidebar.php", etc.):
<div id="menu"> <?php $bt_nav = BlockType::getByHandle('autonav'); $bt_nav->controller->displayPages = 'top'; $bt_nav->controller->orderBy = 'display_asc'; $bt_nav->controller->displaySubPages = 'none'; $bt_nav->render('templates/header_menu'); ?> </div>
As for the TinyMCE issues -- yeah that thing is incredibly difficult to deal with. I don't think this is specific to Concrete5 though, it has always given me problems regardless of which system I'm working in. I suggest maybe looking to the TinyMCE forums for help on that stuff?
Anyway, just didn't want you to think nobody can be of help.
And if you do want to come up with some beginner tutorials, I'd be happy to help with that -- just let me know.
-Jordan
Im not sure there's any way to do what you're asking beyond have a lot of people make a lot of content all over the web. Bear in mind concrete5 is not even quite 2 years old yet as an open source project so it takes some time for the tech bloggers of the world to write how-to's geared to every person's expertise level.
The how-to's in docs are always good, we're trying to write one a week at this point.
The integration between documentation and forums technically at this point is pretty deep/beefy so I'm not sure there's a better machine we can build. Really this just comes down to people writing how-tos that make sense to them.
If you do, please send it to us so we can post it and give you some karma points.
best wishes!
The how-to's in docs are always good, we're trying to write one a week at this point.
The integration between documentation and forums technically at this point is pretty deep/beefy so I'm not sure there's a better machine we can build. Really this just comes down to people writing how-tos that make sense to them.
If you do, please send it to us so we can post it and give you some karma points.
best wishes!
i think a nice wiki that anyone can add and edit would be really nice.
I can tell you, editing with concrete5 as like you would do with a wiki is miles better than editing with wiki syntax.
Franz give folks editing right and with advanced persmission it shouldn't be a problem to filter for pages by wiki group members that need approval and publish them when a quality of standards is reached.
Franz give folks editing right and with advanced persmission it shouldn't be a problem to filter for pages by wiki group members that need approval and publish them when a quality of standards is reached.
Thank you all - it is cool to find a very inspiring community. Your answers give me confidence.
Jordanlev: Thanks for your help - I'm gonna try this out right away. Just one question to this particularly: "header nav" doesn't mean to have
- only horizontal menu
- no submenus
by default? Is it all a matter of the css?...
I found this in your code:
$bt_nav->controller->displaySubPages = 'none';
It smells like submenus to me.
*********************************
This sample demonstrates exactly my main problem: How do I find out, what values are valid for this "attribute"? What else next to none does exist that lets me configurate my menu to my likes. Is there a reference to the values of these "thousands of codesnippets" around?
Perhaps it is really just me, not knowing and you all shake heads... I'm going to risk that. ;-)
*********************************
What I could do to get some good karma :-):
Since my english is all but perfect my entry in explaining something will be a bit harder. It is very important for me to understand exactly what works and what doesn't. So far I am very willing to make screencasts of every kind needed. Of course it helps, when I myself know what I am talking about. So I might have some questions I'd have to bother someone who is familiar with the whole structure to its core.
Living in Switzerland I might also help when (something in) German is demanded.
As for the existing help: It has become much better recently (overhaul)! Thanks.
Jordanlev: Thanks for your help - I'm gonna try this out right away. Just one question to this particularly: "header nav" doesn't mean to have
- only horizontal menu
- no submenus
by default? Is it all a matter of the css?...
I found this in your code:
$bt_nav->controller->displaySubPages = 'none';
It smells like submenus to me.
*********************************
This sample demonstrates exactly my main problem: How do I find out, what values are valid for this "attribute"? What else next to none does exist that lets me configurate my menu to my likes. Is there a reference to the values of these "thousands of codesnippets" around?
Perhaps it is really just me, not knowing and you all shake heads... I'm going to risk that. ;-)
*********************************
What I could do to get some good karma :-):
Since my english is all but perfect my entry in explaining something will be a bit harder. It is very important for me to understand exactly what works and what doesn't. So far I am very willing to make screencasts of every kind needed. Of course it helps, when I myself know what I am talking about. So I might have some questions I'd have to bother someone who is familiar with the whole structure to its core.
Living in Switzerland I might also help when (something in) German is demanded.
As for the existing help: It has become much better recently (overhaul)! Thanks.
Alex,
'Header Nav' is just a name that the designer assigns to an area in the template, so that when the end-user is editing content, it says "Add to Header Nav" (or "Add to Footer" if you called it 'Footer', or "Add to Sidebar" if you called it 'Sidebar').
Adding an autonav block to a page or using the method I showed above will both output an unordered list (<ul>/<li>) -- it is entirely up to you as the designer to apply styles to that list. That's why in my example above I put the <div id="menu"> around the code, so that in the stylesheet you can refer to the list like this:
#menu ul { ... }
#menu li { ... }
#menu li.nav-selected { ... } /* This is for the current page -- C5 will automatically add this class to the list item of the page that the user is viewing -- so you can style it differently if you want */
And I can help you with screencasts. If you tell me what your ideas are, I can work with you to understand the best way to do it in concrete5. Just PM me or email me at: concrete@jordanlev.com
-Jordan
'Header Nav' is just a name that the designer assigns to an area in the template, so that when the end-user is editing content, it says "Add to Header Nav" (or "Add to Footer" if you called it 'Footer', or "Add to Sidebar" if you called it 'Sidebar').
Adding an autonav block to a page or using the method I showed above will both output an unordered list (<ul>/<li>) -- it is entirely up to you as the designer to apply styles to that list. That's why in my example above I put the <div id="menu"> around the code, so that in the stylesheet you can refer to the list like this:
#menu ul { ... }
#menu li { ... }
#menu li.nav-selected { ... } /* This is for the current page -- C5 will automatically add this class to the list item of the page that the user is viewing -- so you can style it differently if you want */
And I can help you with screencasts. If you tell me what your ideas are, I can work with you to understand the best way to do it in concrete5. Just PM me or email me at: concrete@jordanlev.com
-Jordan
I know I might get some sarcastic reply like “poor guy” but I will post this any way. I am by no means an expert, but I find it very difficult to use Concrete also. There just does not seem to be an intuitive flow and all the terminology seems so different. I can never usually find any step by step instructions on how to do things either and find myself feeling frustrated. People who make sarcastic comments do not help matters much either.
Just another poor guy
Just another poor guy
You might want to check "Documentation" in the main menu, here - it has become a basic though grown up section.
Thanks. I might give it a try.
